Measuring blackhorn

[45-70]

how is the compressed figured, because of the wad over powder?
I measure by volume and then weigh it and trickle to exact , no thumping no shaving measure.

 

[GM54-120]

I use a Lehigh range rod. When i set the stop collar its slightly above the actual seat depth. If i lean into the rod it is going down slightly more. A ton of reloading data lists % case fill. If its over 100 its compressed right? So in a ML its always 100% or slightly compressed. We always load the projectile firmly on the powder.

 

[45-70]

i see , just used to shooting long range and i never used any compression on seating , different ball game, using black

 

[Chick]

The guy you quoted, is a 2 or 3 time National muzzleloader champion.

It certainly depends on exactly what a shooter is trying to accomplish. If its hunting accuracy, its one thing. If its extreme accuracy, its a total different matter IMO.

Just a 2gr difference if measuring by volume, or even weight for that matter, can make a significant difference in long range accuracy and groups. If its only hunting accuracy, then that's different.

You don't have to tell me about accuracy issues. I started competing in position shooting, as a kid, in 1968. When I quit shooting NRA High Power, I was shooting Master Class. My next 8 years was spent coaching my son and the county 4H Rifle team. My son won the Louisiana Jr State High Power Rifle Championship at Fort Polk, and a number of State Championship matches in Texas. I could go into a total routine of how a measure the BH209, with the brass measure, but suffice it to say there was never a .2 grain difference in charges. The man I know, who shoots F Class, has shot several possibles on the 600 yard F Class matches, and won enough Bench Rest Trophies to literally fill up a pick up truck bed. He doesn't weigh charges on anything, and he uses Wilson dies and a wooden mallet to load. You want to weigh charges, and it makes you feel good, great! But, it is not necessary. It is kinda like the guy I competed with in Long Range. He mounted every cartridge in a instrument to roll the cartridge and check concentricity, then, straighten any that were out. He was not winning the matches.

 

[Chick]

A NRA High Master High Power competitor I shot with, did all kinds of testing on velocity and accuracy differences of primers. He found that Winchester LR primers varied velocity of the bullet, quite a bit more than CCI LR primers, but, it did not affect overall accuracy. What I am saying is, that most times it is the steady hand and good eye sight of the man behind the trigger, than it is the load. But, yes, consistent loads do make a difference.

 

[45-70]

This is what I like about this sight, when you think you have it figured up comes someone , who really knows what he is talking about , just shows you never know. Thanks Chick!!!!!!!!

 

[ENCORE50A]

............... I could go into a total routine of how a measure the BH209, with the brass measure, but suffice it to say there was never a .2 grain difference in charges...…....

If you're keeping all your volume charges to less than .2, which I assume you do mean 2/10, you're part of a rare group.

 

[Chick]

I fill the measure, then tap around the sides of it, to settle the powder. After that, I slowly move the funnel across the powder. When it gets about half way across, I tap the brass charge tube again, to settle the powder, then slowly close it. It keeps it very consistent. I imagine the kernel length would effect the consistency. All this doesn't take very long, when you have done it alot.

 

[Chick]

This is what I like about this sight, when you think you have it figured up comes someone , who really knows what he is talking about , just shows you never know. Thanks Chick!!!!!!!!

I'm trying to figure out if that was a compliment or tongue in cheek...........lol! When you find someone that knows it all, drop me a note, because I have a few cartridges I need help finding a good load for.

 

[Busta]

If you're keeping all your volume charges to less than .2, which I assume you do mean 2/10, you're part of a rare group.

Actually, it's not really that hard to do, like I tried saying back in my previous post. And as for being part of a rare group? Maybe, maybe not. Does measuring by VOLUME make my groups look rare?

These were all shot back in 2008, when we didn't have to qualify that they were VOLUMETRIC measured charges. This was when I discovered that WEIGHED charges didn't really do anything extra for me, if I did everything consistently. It was before the experts showed up to tell us we were doing it all wrong. Hell, I can't even hit the broad side of a barn with a VOLUMETRIC thrown charge today!










Previous post below.

"Some of you guys are making this easy task, way harder than it has to be.

Wipe VOLUMETRIC powder measure and any tubes you want to fill with a fabric softener sheet to remove static. Overfill T/C U-View powder measure adjusted to your volume setting over a bowl, give it 10 quick snaps with your finger to settle powder completely. Strike off top with spout, pour powder in tube or barrel.

Once you remove the static, Volume charges are easy to throw accurately after tapping to settle completely. One or three taps just ain't gonna do it!

Shoot and enjoy. Repeat!"


Just to be clear, that includes wiping your powder spout on both your powder jug and powder measure with the fabric softener sheet as well as any plastic tubes the powder comes in contact with. You do not have to do this every time. Once the static removal is done, it will last for several shooting sessions. If you ever notice any powder granules starting to get a little clingy, it's time to do it again.

 

[ENCORE50A]

Like I mentioned earlier, if you're shooting for hunting accuracy to 100yds it won't matter. If you're trying for small groups at 200yds or more, I'm going with weight, where just two (2) grains difference can make a significant difference in groups at 200yds and beyond.
NOT FOR PRODUCTION RIFLES...…..



Just 2 grains difference...…..

 

[Chick]

Yes, I can tell you that 2 grains can make a difference, but, I have not seen a 2 grain difference using the volumetric measure that I use.

That is a great group at 200 yds, with any rifle. From my load testing, with all centerfire rifles and muzzleloaders, I can tell you that there are some shots that just are not going to get in the group. Is it the powder, primer, bullet or me? I don't know, I do know that I have some unexplained flyers on occasion. I shot a group at 200 yards, with a 7mm08 (aperture sights), and had 4 shots I could cover with a nickle, then, one flew 3/4" out. Why? Heck if I know. I weighed all my charges on those loads. The man I use to travel with to the NRA High Power matches, loaded all his cartridges on a Lee Load Master, a progressive press that used a volumetric measure, and I weighed all my powder charges and even separated my bullets, by weight. My friend always shot better than me. He is a High Master, and was even hired by the Army, to coach the Special Marksmanship Unit at Fort Benning. Go figure.

 

[45-70]

Hard for me to believe that Army has to hire civilian , to teach them to shoot.

 

[ENCORE50A]

Thanks.
There's a huge difference between CF and muzzleloaders. Although some things remain the same, there are many more contributing factors involved with muzzleloaders and shooting tiny groups. The key though with both, is consistency.

 

[Busta]

Actually, we were discussing 0.2 grains difference, 0.2857 grains in a VOLUMETRIC measure, not 2.0 grains WEIGHT difference. That would be 2.857 VOLUMETRIC grains difference.

For those VOLUMETRIC challenged folks, it's probably best to WEIGH your charges. Hope you have a good scale, and not some cheap digital that will lie to you?

 

[ENCORE50A]

Actually, we were discussing 0.2 grains difference, 0.2857 grains in a VOLUMETRIC measure, not 2.0 grains WEIGHT difference. That would be 2.857 VOLUMETRIC grains difference.

For those VOLUMETRIC challenged folks, it's probably best to WEIGH your charges. Hope you have a good scale, and not some cheap digital that will lie to you?

Yeah, well I'd like to witness someone using a volume measure and getting charges of less than .2 (2/10's) of a grain repeatedly. Follow along...….

 

[I beagle]

I picked me up a tc u-view and I will start with that when I start working up a load. I don't have a scale of any kind so I will start by volume and go from there. I have shot loose 777 for years just want to switch to blackhorn. Thanks for all the info guys!

 

[Chick]

This is what I use. I do tap the sides, as I said, to get it to settle. Doesn't take long. If someone is getting a full 2 grain difference, I don't know what to tell you. That's would be quite out of the norm.
https://www.muzzle-loaders.com/accessories/measure/cvatm-brass-powder-measure-120-grains.html

 

[Chick]

Thanks.
There's a huge difference between CF and muzzleloaders. Although some things remain the same, there are many more contributing factors involved with muzzleloaders and shooting tiny groups. The key though with both, is consistency.

No doubt there is a huge difference, but, measuring powder is measuring powder.

 

[ENCORE50A]

No doubt there is a huge difference, but, measuring powder is measuring powder.

There are just to many contributing factors to eliminate with extreme accuracy with muzzleloaders. Sometimes even bullet seating forces can change group size.

I'm quite certain I can say this, as a matter of fact I believe this...….. Ron has measured more muzzleloader propellants of various kinds than many will in a lifetime. If you go up and look at his chart, post #18, it is extremely close, yet it still shows a variance of one (1) grain in his throws. That's excellent and comes from years with involvement with muzzleloaders and different propellants. Its perfection for what he does and attempts to accomplish.

On the other hand, the most accurate muzzleloader shooters want less than one (1) grain variance if they're trying for tiny groups at range. You're right, its not necessary for 99.9% of hunters.

If you go back up to post #71 and review my targets again, that was 2 grains difference and was significant. A single grain increase might have brought the group size down in 1/2. I'm not willing to accept less than can be obtained.​