Most accurate bullet/sabot combo?

[AveragEd]

I have a new Remington Model 700ULM (Ultimate MuzzleLoader) in a Bell & Carlson Medalist stock due to arrive this week and am wondering if there are any bullets and sabots that have come along in the last couple of years that, based upon your experiences, might be worth trying. I previously owned a stainless 50-caliber T/C Omega in a laminated thumbhole stock that shot best (1.3" 100-yard groups) with 250-grain Hornady SST/ML bullets and sabots over three pellets of Triple Se7en. The new rifle will be fitted with the 3-9x 40mm Leupold UltimateSlam scope that formerly saw duty on the Omega.

This rifle uses centerfire rifle magnum primers in what appears to be handgun brass for ignition of up to four pellets of black powder substitute and I plan to use Federal #215s. Remington touts the rifle as having 300-yard killing power along with 100-yard cloverleaf accuracy (that's the part that interests me most) and I'm anxious to try it out!

Hunting will take place on whitetail deer and possibly black bears primarily in south-central and north-central Pennsylvania, where most shots take place within 100 yards. My longest shot in recent years was 128 yards. I have 250-grain Traditions Smackdown and T/C Shock Wave bullets and sabots on hand along with the Hornadys as well as Pyrodex propellant in addition to the Triple Se7en. Your other suggestions would be very much appreciated!

Ed

 

[ENCORE50A]

I have a new Remington Model 700ULM (Ultimate MuzzleLoader) in a Bell & Carlson Medalist stock due to arrive this week and am wondering if there are any bullets and sabots that have come along in the last couple of years that, based upon your experiences, might be worth trying. I previously owned a stainless 50-caliber T/C Omega in a laminated thumbhole stock that shot best (1.3" 100-yard groups) with 250-grain Hornady SST/ML bullets and sabots over three pellets of Triple Se7en. The new rifle will be fitted with the 3-9x 40mm Leupold UltimateSlam scope that formerly saw duty on the Omega.
This rifle uses centerfire rifle magnum primers in what appears to be handgun brass for ignition of up to four pellets of black powder substitute and I plan to use Federal #215s. Remington touts the rifle as having 300-yard killing power along with 100-yard cloverleaf accuracy (that's the part that interests me most) and I'm anxious to try it out!
Hunting will take place on whitetail deer and possibly black bears primarily in south-central and north-central Pennsylvania, where most shots take place within 100 yards. My longest shot in recent years was 128 yards. I have 250-grain Traditions Smackdown and T/C Shock Wave bullets and sabots on hand along with the Hornadys as well as Pyrodex propellant in addition to the Triple Se7en. Your other suggestions would be very much appreciated!
Ed

I own its big brother, the Ultimate Firearms rifle. Out of my barrel, so far the best bullet to date has been the 300gr SST in a Harvester H5045LB sabot. I have one bullet yet to try, a Barnes 290gr flat base T-EZ bullet, but eager to try it. I'll shoot that bullet from the same H5045LB sabot. Its my understanding that it shoots very well. I prefer Barnes bullets.
I do not shoot 4 pellets of anything. I either shoot 3 Triple Seven Magnum pellets or BH209. Never shooting them both during the same session and always cleaning before changing propellant.

Honestly, I'm looking for reports from actual owners/shooters and not compensated writers. You'll be one of the first that I know of and I'm excited about hearing your results. If you put 3 T7M pellets down that barrel, its going to have more than enough energy at 300yds for whitetails with a 300gr bullet. You'll be pushing the bullet approximately 2,350fps, which will still be giving you approximately 1,450fps at 300yds, with just over 1,400fpe (energy). MORE than adequate for whitetail at 300yds.

What we haven't seen yet, is the rifle's long range capabilities. Randy Wakeman has been shooting one and the best we've seen from him is 100yd shooting. That shooting itself has been no better than many other rifles currently accomplish. If the rifle is touted by Remington to be a 300yd shooter, someone should be showing prospective buyers it will do it. I believe in the right hands and with the right glass on top, it will.

I ........... think.......... that the cases you'll be using, will be shortened .308 brass, however not positive. Once you determine that, you'll be able to make your own cases. You probably WILL NOT get any more than about 3 or 4 primes of each case and you'll be discarding them. Reason is, that as you seat each case on the breech plug nipple, it compresses the inside of the case. Once the primers are compressed to much, they can start to allow some blow back and at that time, its time to discard them. As you can tell from the photo of the cutout, once the inside of the case gets compressed, blow back may happen.



Looking forward to photos of your new rifle, your personal review, then target photos.

 

[AveragEd]

Well, I hate to get off on your wrong foot but I am a compensated writer. As my bio on my profile indicates, I am a contributing editor for Shotgun Sports Magazine. Even though this is not a shotgun, being an outdoor writer gives me access to guns and other shooting hardware for review. In this case, I am buying the rifle directly from Remington as a replacement for my Omega. Even though their last muzzleloader was a failure, I have almost blind faith in Remington firearms as every one I own, and that's roughly 24 of them, is dead-nuts accurate with my handloads, some with absolutely nothing done to them beyond trigger adjustment. Yes, I have had one that did not measure up, a stainless 700BDL in .25-06REM for which over 500 rounds of test-firing failed to produce an acceptably accurate load. I sold it to a local hunter for whom one-inch groups were very satisfactory and replaced it with a 700XCR in the same caliber that shoots very well with the same rifling twist rate. The bottom line is when I do a review of a product, I tell the truth - what I like and dislike about it as well as my recommendation for purchase by our readers.

Several years ago, when the Remington 870 Super Slug was introduced, it was touted as being highly accurate so I bought one from Remington to review. Our son and I tried 13 different slug loads in it at least three times each and were unimpressed with its accuracy. When I advised Remington of what I was experiencing, they even sent me another barrel for it but it was no better. Being spoiled to hunting rifles that will shoot one-hole or near one-hole groups, I did not find 100-yard groups ranging from three to 12 inches by two different shooters "huntworthy" although some readers who must use slugs for big game took me to task for bad-mouthing the gun. It seems that three-inch 100-yard accuracy is pretty decent for those guns, according to them. I am glad Pennsylvania does not require them and subsequently sold the gun. Buying them up front allows me to be completely candid.

I have to question your muzzle velocity numbers because both T/C inlines I have had access to fired a 250-grain bullet at a little over 2,100fps (the Omega's average MV was 2,130fps) using three pellets of Triple Se7en sparked by a Federal 209A primer; they were slightly faster with the same amount of Pyrodex but with less accuracy. And they had 28" barrels where this Remington will have a 26" tube. Accordingly, I have to wonder how the same powder charge can send a 20% heavier bullet out the muzzle at a 10% higher speed. I'm not calling you a liar; merely asking how it happened.

I doubt I'll ever put four pellets in the gun except to see if by some small chance it is more accurate than with three. At age 67, I'm an arthritic olde pharte and recoil is not my friend. At the distance game is customarily shot in these parts, the extra velocity and resulting range just isn't needed.

I will let you know via this forum how it shoots for us. I haven't shopped for inline bullets and sabots since settling on the load I used in the Omega, so there might be new components out there with which I am unfamiliar and I'm hoping to hear about any candidates.

Ed

 

[gizmodawg]

The Remington gun is interesting but the way I read the info that Remington has produced it shows that in order to achieve a 300 yard gun you have to use 200 grains of powder and even then according to their charts you will have a 23.57 inch drop when sighted in for 150 yards. I dont know about you but I have no need for a 300 yard gun, the longest range I have my guns sighted in for is 150 yards and I have never had to shoot that far yet. I have hunted over 40 years with varied weapons up and down the east coast I now spend my time hunting the woods of the Northeast where if you are lucky you get a 100 yard shot. I would find the best load combo for my gun at ranges I shoot and be done with it. My current choice for the Accura MR is a Hornady 250 gr FTB in a MMP sabot over 90 Grs 777 2F off the bench it will shoot 1 inch groups all day ling if I do my part and I have no doubt that it will take any deer I come upon.

 

[AveragEd]

Please understand that as stated in my last post, I have neither the need for or the desire to shoot a 200-grain equivalent charge as my happy hunting grounds are like yours. The rifle will have to be blazingly more accurate with four pellets for me to consider using that much. I have tried two-pellet charges in the Omega and Encore but found the recoil not to be significantly less and the accuracy to be no better than with three pellets.

Ed

 

[ENCORE50A]

Well,.............
I have to question your muzzle velocity numbers because both T/C inlines I have had access to fired a 250-grain bullet at a little over 2,100fps (the Omega's average MV was 2,130fps) using three pellets of Triple Se7en sparked by a Federal 209A primer; they were slightly faster with the same amount of Pyrodex but with less accuracy. And they had 28" barrels where this Remington will have a 26" tube. Accordingly, I have to wonder how the same powder charge can send a 20% heavier bullet out the muzzle at a 10% higher speed. I'm not calling you a liar; merely asking how it happened.......

I will let you know via this forum how it shoots for us. I haven't shopped for inline bullets and sabots since settling on the load I used in the Omega, so there might be new components out there with which I am unfamiliar and I'm hoping to hear about any candidates.

Ed

The difference is in velocity of your 150gr volume charge (3 - T7 pellets) velocity, compared to the velocity of a 180gr volume charge (3 - T7 Magnum pellets). The bullet isn't 20% heavier, closer to 16%, but the propellant is being increased by 17%. The LMRP is hotter than the 209, which has more pressure than the LMRP. The velocity can be increased up to 2,400fps using BH209, as reported by shooters shooting over chronographs. If I'm correct, the winner at the Friendship shoot Hunter Division, shoots 100grs by WEIGHT of BH209 at 2,400fps shooting Match Hunters.

There's a large difference between a production rifle's velocity using a maximum 150gr charge, and a custom platform capable of 200gr equivalent.

 

[AveragEd]

Thank you for that explanation.

Ed

 

[ENCORE50A]

Please understand that as stated in my last post, I have neither the need for or the desire to shoot a 200-grain equivalent charge as my happy hunting grounds are like yours. The rifle will have to be blazingly more accurate with four pellets for me to consider using that much. I have tried two-pellet charges in the Omega and Encore but found the recoil not to be significantly less and the accuracy to be no better than with three pellets.

Ed

I'm fully expecting the long range accuracy of the Remington Ultimate to be very good, in the hands of a good shooter. Remington spent a lot of money building this rifle, including the patented breech plug rights from Ultimate Firearms. Early reports of its accuracy at 100yds are very good. Now if someone were to install a high quality scope, it should be very accurate at 300yds. I guess if someone wanted only a 100yd rifle or less, then even a side hammer in competent hands is a great rifle. The RU, like its big brother the UF, are long range rifles, capable of much longer ranges than most will ever consider shooting. I have one and shoot at ranges I'd have never considered shooting with any of the multiple Encore platform rifles I've owned. Its going to be interesting when these rifles make it into the hands of really good shooters, to find out what its real capabilities are.

 

[AveragEd]

From the posts to this thread and the PMs I've received, I am assuming that not much has changed in the inline muzzleloading bullet world over the past couple of years. Thanks for confirming that I needn't spend much time beating the bushes in search of new projectiles - pretty much the old standbys are still good if one wants to shoot exclusively saboted bullets with black powder substitute pellets rather than loose powder. If anyone does wish to advise me of anything further, please do so via PM.

Ed

 

[GM54-120]

From the posts to this thread and the PMs I've received, I am assuming that not much has changed in the inline muzzleloading bullet world over the past couple of years

I would have to say that is not a accurate assumption. We have come a long way. Parker and Rocky Mountain bullets make some very high BC bullets, mainly for non smoking ML applications. Cecil at Precision Rifles makes all lead tipped boat tails. Lehigh Defense makes controlled fracturing solid brass bullets. Cutting Edge Bullets makes some fine solid copper high BC bullets especially for MLs to your specs.

Parker Match Hunter http://parker-productions-llc.myshopify ... tch-hunter

Sabotless using adjustable sizing dies is catching on daily but mostly in 40 and 45cals.

As far as MLs, the Ultimate is nothing really new. Many people have been building and even selling MLs based on the Rem700 CF and 700ML action for awhile. Most of us with non smoking MLs are very aware of this. Cecil has been converting Rems and Rugers for quite a few years with a shortened 6mm case and Green Mountain barrels. Swinglock makes some of the finest and safest ML in existence including a 800 yard capable 416.

Rem spent a butt load of money on the patent rights to the Ultimate Firearms breach plug and very little else. Hankins rifles will install a LRMP style plug in a variety of platforms for around $500.

 

[AveragEd]

I received some updated information from Remington yesterday on the cases the ignition system uses. They have the same external dimensions as a shortened case from any cartridge in the .308/.30-06 family so any die that will pass over one can be used to deprime them but they differ internally, where they are shaped to conform to the profile of the breech plug. I'm guessing that was done to reduce the chances of the deformation mentioned in the second post to this thread. That same person at Remington told me that shipment of production rifles to distributors started late last week.

Ed

 

[ENCORE50A]

I received some updated information from Remington yesterday on the cases the ignition system uses. They have the same external dimensions as a shortened case from any cartridge in the .308/.30-06 family so any die that will pass over one can be used to deprime them but they differ internally, where they are shaped to conform to the profile of the breech plug. I'm guessing that was done to reduce the chances of the deformation mentioned in the second post to this thread. That same person at Remington told me that shipment of production rifles to distributors started late last week.

Ed

This takes care of that issue......

 

[AveragEd]

The rifle arrived this afternoon. I mounted and bore-sighted the 3-9x Leupold UltimateSlam that was on my Omega and plan to test some loads tomorrow morning. Apparently the model I requested with the Bell & Carlson Medalist stock is not available yet as I received the laminated stock version. It's actually better looking but I worry about bumps and bruises when hunting, so I wanted the more durable stock. This stock comes with an older design Remington recoil pad that is screwed AND glued to the stock so I was not able to replaced it right away with the SuperCell or LimbSaver I have on hand (had to leave for my technical inspecting job at Williams Grove) but I probably will in the near future.

This version comes with open sights to satisfy the laws of a handful of western states. The rear is a nice Williams peep sight that is mounted in the holes used for the rear scope base and the front is the usual Remington rifle front sight. I removed the rear sight in order to mount the scope and will remove the front when I get my sight tools back from the person to whom I loaned them (as soon as I remember who that was...) so I can drift the sight's blade over to access the mounting screw under it.

I learned something about the ATF's firearms laws today. I thought black powder guns were not considered "firearms" by the ATF but it seems that since this muzzleloader has locking lugs on its bolt, an ATF Form 4473 must be completed as well as an instant background check. I'm not sure I fully get that and I'm guessing a lot of people, including some dealers, might not be aware of it as my gun's cardboard box as well as the plastic case in which it came bear large "4473 required" stickers.

Ed

 

[a1smokepole]

I read some were if you us BH209 in the new Remington you will get gas cutting bad and will trash the guns barrel. will have to look for it.
Here it is.viewtopic.php?f=13&t=25619

 

[ENCORE50A]

I read some were if you us BH209 in the new Remington you will get gas cutting bad and will trash the guns barrel. will have to look for it.
Here it is.viewtopic.php?f=13&t=25619

Will trash the barrel? HOLY SMOKES how the story changes! ........... Nope. It may gas cut the breech plug.

 

[Busta]

If it requires 4473, how did you legally purchase it from Remington?

 

[Hornet22savage]

The same way you would buy directly from Ithaca Gun in Ohio. You buy it from them but have it shipped to a FFL holder who then does all of the paper work and background check. It's basically the same method as buying direct from another person.

 

[AveragEd]

I was going to be a wise acre and reply "with a credit card" but 22's explanation is better. Gun manufacturers furnish test products to outdoor writers that way all the time.

Test-firing so far has amounted to very little due to some time constraints but my first scope-checking group at 25 yards went into one hole. I am surprised how easy bullets are to seat in this rifle's dirty bore. My Omega required that you really lean on the rod after the first shot, so I guess the claims of cleaner ignition with centerfire primers have merit.

Ed

 

[Busta]

The same way you would buy directly from Ithaca Gun in Ohio. You buy it from them but have it shipped to a FFL holder who then does all of the paper work and background check. It's basically the same method as buying direct from another person.

I know how that works. I guess it was the "I'm buying the rifle directly from Remington...". There is no directly on a 4473 firearm, unless it is a FTF from a private individual.

 

[AveragEd]

Physically, perhaps not but there is a "directly" when it comes to the financials...

Ed