new Omega barrel disappointment

[dragonfly]

I hear ya. I'm not ready to give up on this one ….yet. There's still a few things I can try. This gun should still kill a deer inside 100yds as is. It's just frustrating that it shot 2in groups when it was 80 degrees. I'm surprised and confused as to why it opened up to 4in just because it got cold. I'm gonna try a slightly tighter sabot next. Fingers crossed.

 

[MrTom]

If I read this right, the first and second shots are very close and at the aim point? Since you have just one shot you should be good to go for hunting. If you’re looking to punch paper you may have a good argument for a different barrel as Doe hunter suggests.

 

[ShawnT]

Which primer are you using now with BH 209 powder?

 

[dragonfly]

There is no consistency to the group from the first shot on. It's different every time. The only thing that you could call consistent is that the rifle shot sub 2in groups when it was in the 80's and now opened up to 4in at 30/40 degrees. this barrel shot fine when it was warm. If the barrel's a dud, I'd think it wouldn't group well when it's warm either.

I'm using W209 primers with very little blowback if any. Maybe this gun doesn't like BH209.

 

[HC]

Some shooters run a dry patch between shots,something you might try. When I pour the powder in the barrel hold the muzzle with one hand and strike midway the barrel with the other palm to settle the powder. Use a uniform seating pressure on the saboted bullet. Good luck.


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[wolfer]

2 good shots! How many you need to kill a deer? Usually with a ML you only get 1 shot, should be enuf. I'm thinking your barrel likes to be clean - try a solvent patch and then 2 dry after 2 shots - repeat.

Have you looked at the barrel internally with a scope? I have seen ML barrels that were extremely rough and full of "chatter" marks. Lapping wil help cure that problem.

Personally I like .458 bullets in black crush rib give best accuracy. 300 grainers of whatever you like. My rifle dosent see any difference if Hornady, Remington, Sierra, Speer or Barnes Originals, shoots them all good. It also likes the .458 X 325 FTX plenty too.

I do use a light knurl on ALL bullets I shoot out of sabots. Cured my infrequent flyer problem.

And yes I have had the QLA cut off and re crowned all the barrels that have it.

Really seems like you have a good donor to send to "Bestill" and have a smokeless grade barrel put on. Once you go smokeless you will never go back to smokers unless law/regulation requires it.

This is my experience and opinion, others will be different. Freedom is great! W

 

[derfhunter]

This probably wont do anything but I would try a wad on top of the powder and under sabot and see if anything changes.
If it does, that will narrow it down for you

 

[Dougs136Schwartz]

I had 2 guns that I had all kinds of trouble getting the. to shoot . One was a Savage ML . The only bullet i could get to shoot MOA at 100 yards was a Powerbelt Aerolite

The second gun was a CVA Optima . That gun would only shoot Dead Center 50/40 cal bullets MOA at 100 yards and the bullets could weigh no more than 200 grains .

I have more muzzleloaders than most . I'm sitting in a blind with buddy right now discussing this topic . Between my buddy and I we have 50 different muzzleloaders neither one of us can think of a gun that we could not eventually get to shoot . Some guns we would have to try endless combinations of bullets and loads which can get very expensive but we eventually could always get them to shoot..

If we have a gun that is giving us fits . We go to extremes while starting loads . maximum and minimum charges . Extreme light 185/200 grain bullets to Extreme heavy say 500 grain bullets. Obvious sabot fitting some guns like tight some like loose. Also something that most guys do not thing about is the length of the sabot can make a huge difference on some guns. There are endless combinations one can try.

Providing all mounts are tight and torqued to specs and your scope is not junk a person should eventually find a load that will shoot . But I could be wrong it sure would not be the first time I have been wrong!

 

[Bluedevil]

I shot my best groups on my TC Omega shooting Barnes 290gr TEZ, 77gr (weighed) Blackhorn 209 and Federal 209A shotshell primers. Win 209 primers consistently ignited BH209 but found my groups tightened up when I switched to Federal 209A.

 

[dbowling]

agree with this, even the most finicky gun will shoot groups with some bullet/powder combo you just have to be willing to put in the bench(money) time to find it..

I had 2 guns that I had all kinds of trouble getting the. to shoot . One was a Savage ML . The only bullet i could get to shoot MOA at 100 yards was a Powerbelt Aerolite

The second gun was a CVA Optima . That gun would only shoot Dead Center 50/40 cal bullets MOA at 100 yards and the bullets could weigh no more than 200 grains .

I have more muzzleloaders than most . I'm sitting in a blind with buddy right now discussing this topic . Between my buddy and I we have 50 different muzzleloaders neither one of us can think of a gun that we could not eventually get to shoot . Some guns we would have to try endless combinations of bullets and loads which can get very expensive but we eventually could always get them to shoot..

If we have a gun that is giving us fits . We go to extremes while starting loads . maximum and minimum charges . Extreme light 185/200 grain bullets to Extreme heavy say 500 grain bullets. Obvious sabot fitting some guns like tight some like loose. Also something that most guys do not thing about is the length of the sabot can make a huge difference on some guns. There are endless combinations one can try.

Providing all mounts are tight and torqued to specs and your scope is not junk a person should eventually find a load that will shoot . But I could be wrong it sure would not be the first time I have been wrong!

 

[dragonfly]

Went to the range again today for 5 hrs. I tried several new combos and got the same disappointing results. Light bullets, heavy bullets and many different sabots ...supplied..crush rib...short blk...etc. All bullets loaded snugly. I cleaned the carbon out of the BP after every 10 shots. No better than 4in groups. Strangely enough, just about all the different load combos I've tried, I can get 2 rounds almost touching and another 4in away. Doesn't seem to matter whether it's 80gr or 110gr. It can be the 1st shot out of the group or the 2nd or 3rd. Very frustrating. I have not tried Fed 209A primers. Could it be that simple? I have my doubts but will try them. I use the W209 primers cause I get almost zero blowback and most come out clean. Gonna try .458 Bloodlines thinking a tighter load might help. We'll see.

I'm about to give up on this one. Could it be that this gun just doesn't like BH209?

 

[ShawnT]

Unfortunately I am not all that familiar with the Omega, But I have a couple thoughts.

First one is simple. Try putting a Dry patch on the jag, run it all the way down to the breech plug (No Powder charge), then fire off one Win 209 primer, point it in a safe direction but the rod will not leave the bore just move up away from the BP. Now pull the Rod/patch out and look at the patch to see how much of the patch is burned away. This is a very good visual for telling you just how much primer Flame/Pressure is reaching the powder. If all the patch on the face of the jag is burned away then I can't see a Mag primer fixing this issue, but who knows till you try.

Second thing that comes to mind is Bedding. The issue you are describing I have seen on more than one rifle that had a bedding issue with the action/barrel in a bit of a bind. In the worst case I saw the shots barely fit on a target that was 8 1/2"x 11". Does Your barreled action slip all the way into the stock smoothly or does the mounting screws have to pull it down to the bottom of the channel? Does it have one or 2 mounting screws? If 2 try loosening them both all the way then snug them down and watch the barrel closely, Then alternately loosen one screw leaving the other tight, does the barrel move when one is loosened?

Again just a couple thoughts.

 

[HC]

Does the new barrel have QLA? Just thinking, may be the problem.


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[dragonfly]

Mmm. Thank you for the reply. I will try both suggestions. This is, btw, a brand new replacement barrel on the original standard plastic stock. The original barrel had welded mounting lugs. This one has the lugs attached to the barrel with screws. Then, two more screws hold the barrel/action to the stock. I was told to tighten the screw nearest the trigger first. Everything appears to line up. I does go down smoothly and bottoms out but I suppose there is a chance something is askew. Worth a closer look. Thanks again!

 

[dragonfly]

Yes. It does have the QLA. I read that the QLA didn't really effect saboted bullets. Just full bore. Not true??

 

[HC]

Yes. It does have the QLA. I read that the QLA didn't really effect saboted bullets. Just full bore. Not true??

That was the last possible cause that I could think of. Strange though it shooting so well in hot weather. Typically QLA does not effect saboted bullets. Hang in there, you’ll find the right load.


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[ShawnT]

Mmm. Thank you for the reply. I will try both suggestions. This is, btw, a brand new replacement barrel on the original standard plastic stock. The original barrel had welded mounting lugs. This one has the lugs attached to the barrel with screws. Then, two more screws hold the barrel/action to the stock. I was told to tighten the screw nearest the trigger first. Everything appears to line up. I does go down smoothly and bottoms out but I suppose there is a chance something is askew. Worth a closer look. Thanks again!

The Rifle I mentioned that barely kept its shots on an 8 1/2" X 11" target was a Newly finished custom rifle with a Hart barrel Done by a very well known shop (not going to mention any names). It took me quite some time to figure out what the issue was but it was a bedding issue that was not real easy to see, and had several things wrong with the bedding. Alternately loosening and tightening the screws showed that the barrel moved up and down, and it did not take much. When the screws were tight it put a small bind in the barreled action.

I would check to see if those screws holding the mounting lugs are touching anything in the bottom of the stock. IF they are they could act as pivot points, even though you tightened the mounting screws tight, and allow the barrel to move under fire or the stock to flex some in those spots. If there is small marks in the stock from the screws holding the lug, you might try just re-leaving those small spots enough so the screws don't touch anything. If grouping gets better then you'll know your on the right track.

 

[SteveH]

Mmm. Thank you for the reply. I will try both suggestions. This is, btw, a brand new replacement barrel on the original standard plastic stock. The original barrel had welded mounting lugs. This one has the lugs attached to the barrel with screws. Then, two more screws hold the barrel/action to the stock. I was told to tighten the screw nearest the trigger first. Everything appears to line up. I does go down smoothly and bottoms out but I suppose there is a chance something is askew. Worth a closer look. Thanks again!

I skimmed through this and might of missed it, but have you double-checked the screws mounting the lugs to the barrel? they are torx screws (T7 I believe) and definitely have a tendency to work loose. I used Loctite to keep mine secure. The lug screws by the trigger assembly are particularly challenging to tighten.

 

[Idaholewis]

Yes. It does have the QLA. I read that the QLA didn't really effect saboted bullets. Just full bore. Not true??

I would love to see this rifle shoot a Group with the QLA, and 1 without it, I would NOT trust a QLA Muzzle under any circumstances. I have seen some CRAZY WILD stuff with QLA Muzzles, this was using full bore Conicals, The problem was actually the over Powder Wad type, The Rifle seemed to shoot fine with a Wool Wad, Except 1 REALLY ODD Flyer several FEET high?? Which started playing head games Cuz we knew better! Then we tried some Hard Card, Vege Fibre Wads, That’s where things got WILD, We Couldn’t even hit the entire Target 2 times in a Row. I seen 1 bullet Part the Weeds several feet in front of the Target, Cut a Trench through the Ground, The other shots were nowhere to be found? No telling where they went? They can say what they want about the QLA Muzzle only effecting Full Bore Conicals, if a little Over Powder Wad can WREAK that kind of HAVOC like they did in our testing, I wouldn’t trust a QLA Muzzle with any Form of Projectile. I have passed up several really nice old Muzzleloaders that had the QLA Muzzle, unless I REALLY needed it for the Stock/Parts, and they Wanted Scrap metal prices, they can keep them

 

[Lee 9]

Look really hard at the sabot question. I used MMP sabots when I lived up north and they work well when I moved to central AR. I had to switch to Harvester sabots to get the same level of accuracy. They use different plastic and the temperature does make a difference. The right fit with the right brand and problems that are based on temperature change go away.