Pedersoli target rifles any good?

[drpatton]

Are the Pedersoli, "Whitworth", "Gibbs" and "Mortimer" rifles, good or great for accuracy & competition? Or are they just very expensive rifles?

I currently have two Pedersoli's, a "Rocky Mtn Hawken" and a Pedersoli Lyman GPR. They are very good rifles, but they were not designed for serious accuracy or competition shooting.

 

[fishdfly]

They are quality rifles.

 

[45-70]

Are the Pedersoli, "Whitworth", "Gibbs" and "Mortimer" rifles, good or great for accuracy & competition? Or are they just very expensive rifles?

I currently have two Pedersoli's, a "Rocky Mtn Hawken" and a Pedersoli Lyman GPR. They are very good rifles, but they were not designed for serious accuracy or competition shooting.

I have a Ped Gibbs , bought in 2001, Have won one National championship, and numerous 1000 yd. and mid range matches with it. I shot PP bullets , 530 grain , 94 grains 2ff , swiss. My first long range medal was won at 500 yds. , 3rd place NMLRA Championship. Can't have one built for same money And it was a Mortimer

 

[X-ring]

Are the Pedersoli, "Whitworth", "Gibbs" and "Mortimer" rifles, good or great for accuracy & competition? Or are they just very expensive rifles?

I currently have two Pedersoli's, a "Rocky Mtn Hawken" and a Pedersoli Lyman GPR. They are very good rifles, but they were not designed for serious accuracy or competition shooting.

Many long range [1000 yard] muzzleloaders use the Pedersoli Gibbs in competition. They are serious competition rifles when you find out what load works best.

 

[drpatton]

I have a Ped Gibbs , bought in 2001, Have won one National championship, and numerous 1000 yd. and mid range matches with it. I shot PP bullets , 530 grain , 94 grains 2ff , swiss. My first long range medal was won at 500 yds. , 3rd place NMLRA Championship. Can't have one built for same money And it was a Mortimer

I'm looking at a Pedersoli, S278 model, Mortimer Whitworth in .451 and a 1:21 twist. The S278 is the $2,000 version. Pedersoli has, but is not currently making, a L278 which is the $5,000 version.

So, is the $2,000 version a really good target rifle? Is the L278 really worth $5,000?

I have communicated with Pedersoli and they are having an issue getting raw materials, so they are not currently making certain rifles.

Thanks

 

[idahoron]

I'm looking at a Pedersoli, S278 model, Mortimer Whitworth in .451 and a 1:21 twist. The S278 is the $2,000 version. Pedersoli has, but is not currently making, a L278 which is the $5,000 version.

So, is the $2,000 version a really good target rifle? Is the L278 really worth $5,000?

I have communicated with Pedersoli and they are having an issue getting raw materials, so they are not currently making certain rifles.

Thanks

I have not looked at these at all.
Is the tang on this rifle long enough to install a good quality tang sight?

 

[drpatton]

I have not looked at these at all.
Is the tang on this rifle long enough to install a good quality tang sight?

So I am told, yes.
Pedersoli web page for it: Muzzle Loading Rifles model Mortimer Whitworth Rifle

Idahoron, what do you think of it?

 

[idahoron]

So I am told, yes.
Pedersoli web page for it: Muzzle Loading Rifles model Mortimer Whitworth Rifle

Idahoron, what do you think of it?

View attachment 29099

That one has a short tang and tge rear sight is in the wood.

 

[drpatton]

I see it, but I don't understand why that is an issue. The wood could give way?

 

[Ka'imiloa]

So I am told, yes.
Pedersoli web page for it: Muzzle Loading Rifles model Mortimer Whitworth Rifle

Idahoron, what do you think of it?

View attachment 29099

The Pedersoli Mortimer-Whitworth and Gibbs rifles are high quality. The 1:21 twist M-W is meant for ultimate accuracy at 100 yds using their pretty blunt .45 500 gr. bullet of long-shank, multi-groove design and moderate powder charge of perhaps 80 gr. volume Swiss 1.5 F powder. If using ordinary BP like Goex, perhaps 90 gr. volume. Comes with the shorter tang sight shown in above pic. Remove that sight, and its base set in the stock, and you can install a tall tang sight such the modification gunsmith and ML shooter Lee Shaver makes to the available Pedersoli long range tang sight.
I shot a M-W model before the Gibbs came out, successfully, to 1000 yds. But I used a L.R. bullet of about 540 gr. and a heavier powder charge of 107 gr. of 1.5 F Swiss, to give adequate spin rate to the bullet for long range use.
The Gibbs is 1:18 twist and meant to shoot a bit longer .45 bullet of about 540 gr. having a longer nose with good ogive form, and meant for 600-1000 yd. shooting. Powder charge often about 90 gr. by vol. of 1.5 F Swiss powder. It comes with, or did, come with a highly adjustable long range tang sight. Best to have a platinum-lined nipple if using a heavier charge and heavier bullet like this, due to increased pressure and therefore faster wear-out of a nipple.
Both rifles previously had a slight choke at the muzzle to maximize accuracy, say about .001" constriction. This is finesse manufacturing, and probably the result of precision lapping after the rifling is made. These models probably still have that, but ask Pedersoli.
Aloha, Ka'imiloa
.

 

[drpatton]

The Pedersoli Mortimer-Whitworth and Gibbs rifles are high quality. The 1:21 twist M-W is meant for ultimate accuracy at 100 yds using their pretty blunt .45 500 gr. bullet of long-shank, multi-groove design and moderate powder charge of perhaps 80 gr. volume Swiss 1.5 F powder. If using ordinary BP like Goex, perhaps 90 gr. volume. Comes with the shorter tang sight shown in above pic. Remove that sight, and its base set in the stock, and you can install a tall tang sight such the modification gunsmith and ML shooter Lee Shaver makes to the available Pedersoli long range tang sight.
I shot a M-W model before the Gibbs came out, successfully, to 1000 yds. But I used a L.R. bullet of about 540 gr. and a heavier powder charge of 107 gr. of 1.5 F Swiss, to give adequate spin rate to the bullet for long range use.
The Gibbs is 1:18 twist and meant to shoot a bit longer .45 bullet of about 540 gr. having a longer nose with good ogive form, and meant for 600-1000 yd. shooting. Powder charge often about 90 gr. by vol. of 1.5 F Swiss powder. It comes with, or did, come with a highly adjustable long range tang sight. Best to have a platinum-lined nipple if using a heavier charge and heavier bullet like this, due to increased pressure and therefore faster wear-out of a nipple.
Both rifles previously had a slight choke at the muzzle to maximize accuracy, say about .001" constriction. This is finesse manufacturing, and probably the result of precision lapping after the rifling is made. These models probably still have that, but ask Pedersoli.
Aloha, Ka'imiloa
.

I'm surprised you are using Swiss 1.5FG in a .45. I don't shoot a .45, but I've read, one is supposed to use 3FG pistol powder in a .45 or smaller. How did you come to realize you could use 1.5Fg and shoot extremely well with it? Or, is it just Swiss powder you can do that with it?

 

[idahoron]

I see it, but I don't understand why that is an issue. The wood could give way?

The wood could be an issue with moving with moisture or cold. It might even crack.
I would be much more happy with a tang mounted soule sight.

 

[drpatton]

The wood could be an issue with moving with moisture or cold. It might even crack.
I would be much more happy with a tang mounted soule sight.

Well, how about this? It is a Pedersoli "Gibbs" rifle, in 40 & 451 caliber and a tang mounted creedmoor rear sight. I'm told, here on this forum, this is a great 500 yrd - 1,00 yrd competition rifle.
https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/en/product/gibbs-rifle

 

[X-ring]

I'm surprised you are using Swiss 1.5FG in a .45. I don't shoot a .45, but I've read, one is supposed to use 3FG pistol powder in a .45 or smaller. How did you come to realize you could use 1.5Fg and shoot extremely well with it? Or, is it just Swiss powder you can do that with it?

1 1/2 Swiss is used by many long range M/L ers. Some want more velocity and go with FF Swiss. Of course, FF produces more recoil. Use whichever shoots the best in your rifle. Swiss is the powder of choice.
P.S. The tang sight that comes with the Gibbs isn't nearly as good as the Lee Shaver model for the Gibbs. X

 

[drpatton]

1 1/2 Swiss is used by many long range M/L ers. Some want more velocity and go with FF Swiss. Of course, FF produces more recoil. Use whichever shoots the best in your rifle. Swiss is the powder of choice.
P.S. The tang sight that comes with the Gibbs isn't nearly as good as the Lee Shaver model for the Gibbs. X

When I shot BP, I used GOEX. The only reason was, a lady in Winchester, VA, at the exit gate for the N/SSA, sold bags of GOEX so cheap, I couldn't ignore it. I can't remember specifically, but the cost of a 5lb bag of 2Fg was around $20. It was odd. Everyone knew Swiss shot better, but then they all used GOEX anyway.

As far as the Gibbs, I don't know anything about the sights, but the Soule looked more stable than the Creedmoor.

 

[45-70]

I'm surprised you are using Swiss 1.5FG in a .45. I don't shoot a .45, but I've read, one is supposed to use 3FG pistol powder in a .45 or smaller. How did you come to realize you could use 1.5Fg and shoot extremely well with it? Or, is it just Swiss powder you can do that with it?

It is an old time load for black some use Swiss 2ff now. Trust what we are saying if you want to get into long range using these type rifles. Inlines are different ball game , but black has already been done, in doubt here is title of a book on it. "The Target Rifle In Australia 1800- 1900" , it has a section on loads and bullet weight used then.

 

[drpatton]

It is an old time loads for black some use Swiss 2ff now. Trust what we are saying if you want to get into long range using these type rifles. Inlines are different ball game , but black has already been done, in doubt here is title of a book on it. "The Target Rifle In Australia 1800- 1900" , it has a section on loads and bullet weight used then.

Believe me, I trust you . I can't say I understand this, but I believe it.
Understand, I never had a .45 rifle, so this is all new to me.

I was told, granular size (FG) had to do with burning rate. I was also told, a larger barrel volume allowed for a slower burning powder and a narrower barrel required a faster burning powder.
Again, I was told if you burned a slower granularization of powder in a narrow barrel, a large portion of the unburned or unspent powder would be expelled from the barrel, never having done its job. Conversely, if one used too fast of a powder, accuracy falls off. Rifles like to have powder burning down the tube for constant and consistent pressure.

Now, I'm being told by the experts, this is all wrong, so I am on the wrong side of the learning curve.
I need to learn how the mechanics of powder burning and pressure make for accuracy. And, I believe I am in the correct place to learn it from those who actually know.

 

[idahoron]

Well, how about this? It is a Pedersoli "Gibbs" rifle, in 40 & 451 caliber and a tang mounted creedmoor rear sight. I'm told, here on this forum, this is a great 500 yrd - 1,00 yrd competition rifle.
https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/en/product/gibbs-rifle

That is the rifle I would be looking at for a target gun. I might even use it for hunting if I was in a blind or set up on a high ridge in a improvised ground blind set up.
I too would go with a Lee Shavers sight.
This Hot Rod Renegade had a Lee Shavers mid range soule sight with a Hadley eye cup and a Ferriss adjustable globe front sight with Lee Shavers BPCR inserts for long range.
This rifle is so fun to shoot.
The disc is the size of a 500 yard bullseye. The thing I like to do is have other guys shoot the gun. When guys that know muzzleloaders shoot a target at 300 or 400 yards, it puts smiles on faces.

 

[45-70]

Believe me, I trust you . I can't say I understand this, but I believe it.
Understand, I never had a .45 rifle, so this is all new to me.

I was told, granular size (FG) had to do with burning rate. I was also told, a larger barrel volume allowed for a slower burning powder and a narrower barrel required a faster burning powder.
Again, I was told if you burned a slower granularization of powder in a narrow barrel, a large portion of the unburned or unspent powder would be expelled from the barrel, never having done its job. Conversely, if one used too fast of a powder, accuracy falls off. Rifles like to have powder burning down the tube for constant and consistent pressure.

Now, I'm being told by the experts, this is all wrong, so I am on the wrong side of the learning curve.
I need to learn how the mechanics of powder burning and pressure make for accuracy. And, I believe I am in the correct place to learn it from those who actually know.

you are trying to make it to complicated for black powder, not the same as smokeless

 

[drpatton]

That is the rifle I would be looking at for a target gun. I might even use it for hunting if I was in a blind or set up on a high ridge in a improvised ground blind set up.
I too would go with a Lee Shavers sight.
This Hot Rod Renegade had a Lee Shavers mid range soule sight with a Hadley eye cup and a Ferriss adjustable globe front sight with Lee Shavers BPCR inserts for long range.
This rifle is so fun to shoot.
The disc is the size of a 500 yard bullseye. The thing I like to do is have other guys shoot the gun. When guys that know muzzleloaders shoot a target at 300 or 400 yards, it puts smiles on faces.

My very first Muzzleloader, was a T/C Renegade .54 Flintlock. I bought it in the summer/fall of 1983 and never looked back. I was told by several people, a Renegade is an MOA rifle "out of the box." Over the years, I ended up with and still own, a combination of 6 Renegades in .54 & .50 calibers. Four of them have Williams FP Hawken rear sights and Lyman 17 globe front sights. I already own 2 Lee Shaver front globe sights and want to place 2 Williams Soule rear sights to match them, but these are going to be after Christmas presents to me. Maybe even birthday... I believe I even own a 1" across the flats T/C Hawken. I bought it in mid 1980s.

I gathered 2 Green Mountain barrels for the renegade stocks. Both are PRB shooters. One has a more recent 1:70 twist and the one I bought in the mid-90s, is 1:66?

As far as eye cups, I only have the few which came with the FP Hawken and a one Williams large eye cup. I haven't learned enough about eye cups and target sizes to buy them. I need the large disk - small aperture eye cups. As I stated, I don't know what Aperture size to purchase.

Right now, my goal is to become proficient at bench rest shooting. Once I'm comfortable with it, I'll work on moving on to competitions. Competition stances may be an issue. I have nerve damage in my legs due to vertebrae problems, 4 back surgeries and fusions Fortunately, I'm retired (not medically) and this is my retirement hobby. "I love the smell of gunpowder in the morning." ;-)

Swiss GP is scarce to non-existent here where I live. I will have to buy it online and pay the exorbitant explosives fee. If I buy 5 cans of Swiss, with shipping, the cost will be about $41 a can. That is a hefty price. That is why I currently shoot Triple 7. It's $31 a can and it's everywhere. Pyrodex is spotty.