Powder

[Chick]

I have been through 5 in-line muzzle loaders, that utilize the 209 primers. All I can say is thank god for Blackhorn 209. That 777 mess, ought to be outlawed. 2 shots with it, and I had a crud ring from hell. With the BH209, I don't even have to wipe the barrel, just keep loading. 50 shots later, it is still consistent.

 

[dbowling]

777 is not bad as long as you realize you will get a crud ring and you wipe barrel in between shots.. which in reality is no big deal because if your shooting for accuracy/groups you should let the barrel cool between shots anyway so your groups don't open up..muzzle loading isn't supposed to be a fast paced sport where you load and shoot as fast as you can, its best to relax and take your time and enjoy it. I personally like the clean up on 777 much better then BH209 but prefer 209 for the same fact as you no swabbing and very consistent accuracy.
With 209 every so many shots you have to stop and clean out flame channel on breech plug plus you have to be consistent in loading pressure with it so there are trade offs with any powder.

 

[ENCORE50A]

777 is not bad as long as you realize you will get a crud ring and you wipe barrel in between shots.. which in reality is no big deal because if your shooting for accuracy/groups you should let the barrel cool between shots anyway so your groups don't open up..muzzle loading isn't supposed to be a fast paced sport where you load and shoot as fast as you can, its best to relax and take your time and enjoy it. I personally like the clean up on 777 much better then BH209 but prefer 209 for the same fact as you no swabbing and very consistent accuracy.
With 209 every so many shots you have to stop and clean out flame channel on breech plug plus you have to be consistent in loading pressure with it so there are trade offs with any powder.

Agreed.

I shot T7 for the last 5 years and with that specific rifle, it cleaned up faster and easier than I could ever clean it after shooting BH.

 

[Confederate rifleman]

Pick yer poison...
Pyrodex is horribly corrosive. T7 has the crud ring and BH 209 is fussy and clogs up breech plugs.
This is why I shoot black powder...

 

[dwm]

Black horn way to expensive here in jersey. 777 cheaper for more powder. I also don’t mind swabbing between shots, but I use a ton of patches, who knows

 

[treepotato]

So what kind of prices are y'all seeing with BH209 and 777?

I picked up some BH209 for $38 a can yesterday... might have to go back for the other two cans they had while it's at the price.

 

[ENCORE50A]

So what kind of prices are y'all seeing with BH209 and 777?

I picked up some BH209 for $38 a can yesterday... might have to go back for the other two cans they had while it's at the price.

Depending on how much you shoot, the 5# container is the best deal you'll get. BH has an unlimited shelf life IIRC.

https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/search?SearchTerm=blackhorn+209

 

[sabotloader]

Black horn way to expensive here in jersey. 777 cheaper for more powder. I also don’t mind swabbing between shots, but I use a ton of patches, who knows

I shoot a lot of T7 through the year. I do not have a problem with it. There is a learning curve that goes with it.

Patches - you really do not need to run a new patch every time. I use the same patch over and over as long as it maintains some moisture. I am using pre=prepared blue Windex patches.

If you make these patches correctly - just barely moist - there is really no need to run a dry patch after the Windex patch. The warmth of the barrel of the barrel dries the bore very quickly and the Ammonia in the Windex accelerates the drying. Just make sure you do not have moisture in the nipple.

I do not add alcohol to the mixture alcohol will make the patch dry much quicker.

 

[Lee 9]

I watch our Walmart very carefully, I have managed to be there twice when they marked it down below 15 dollars and bought all they had. I now have enough to last 3 years.
As far as 777 is concerned I believe it is just about totally impractical in some areas, I tried for two years to get it to work and I spent as much as 7 or 8 minutes cleaning the crud-ring out for each shot, I tried every thing I heard of and all kinds of different cleaners and scrubbed out the barrel before I loaded it and tried different oils in the barrel when not shooting. Blackhorn is the best answer for some of us.

 

[dwm]

I don’t have any real trouble cleaning the crud ring,thanks for the info on the windex patches. I use #13 bore cleaner patches just damp and dry with plain patch. I never used windex before but I think I will try it, thank you

 

[ENCORE50A]

I shot T7, HEAVY CHARGES, like a mad man for the past 5 years and swabbed the barrel with a single patch between shots, very lightly damp with Butch's Black Powder Bore Shine. One patch between shots all day long. At the end of the day, 5 or 6 patches total and a completely clean rifle. T7 isn't as bad as some would like to believe.

 

[dwm]

I can’t tell you guys how much I am enjoying this site , lots of great people with fantastic tips, thanks

 

[sabinajiles]

I think T7 gets an undeserved bad rap, too. I still have a MK-85 that I shoot T7 in and since it uses percussion caps, I can get 3 shots before I need to swab but I usually swab after every shot. I also use Butchs Bore Shine and it cleans it easily. Blackhorn 209 is interesting stuff, it definitely doesn't burn clean and leaves a lot of residue but the residue does stay soft and it's actually easier to reload fter shooting it than to load a clean barrel. I use BH209 in all my smokers except the MK-85 and but it in the 5 lb jug and it is pretty reasonable. I did notice a 5 lb jug of it is running about $20 higher this year than it did a year ago.

 

[Highoctane]

I watch our Walmart very carefully, I have managed to be there twice when they marked it down below 15 dollars and bought all they had. I now have enough to last 3 years.
As far as 777 is concerned I believe it is just about totally impractical in some areas, I tried for two years to get it to work and I spent as much as 7 or 8 minutes cleaning the crud-ring out for each shot, I tried every thing I heard of and all kinds of different cleaners and scrubbed out the barrel before I loaded it and tried different oils in the barrel when not shooting. Blackhorn is the best answer for some of us.

I do the same thing. I found several jugs of BH209 a few days ago at Wally World for 13 dollars per jug!! I wished they would have had more for that price..

 

[LFM]

Could it be that here some have realized that there is that space (that some shim) and getting blow back is part and why some see some powders different when prior to 209 we had more limited options and no clue as to Shimming the Bolt... But over time things are learned and corrected... Like Primer length vary Now the 209 W is popular where as the 209A was the more Popular Primer... Never thought they could Vary, was not into the "mechanics" of measuring and sizing etc just put 2 50 pellets of 777 or Pyrodex and a bullet / sabot down the barrel put any primer in and squeezed the trigger and bang and hoped I hit the paper... For some that was it like myself I am not all things ML and as for Cleaning that is maybe why i got away from ML for such a long time (crud ring and all). Now that I am gaining on 65 years I might have a little more time to mess with my Disc Elite... Will see but like most things keeping up is at times a lot to try and do... I have not had my Elite out of the safe in years... Maybe It is Time... As I keep reading some weight the powder while some don't just a volume measure others do both... For me keeping Simple is the way for me... Doubt I will ever Weight my Powder and why I used Pellets when I was shooting my ML... Guess why I use my 30.06 mostly, easy drop a cartridge in and done... And Wonder how good my original jug of BH 209 is as each Lot is different (as I read It). And It has been sitting since then, Unopened...
Still reading... Sorry for my blanket statements... Newbie again...
LFM

 

[MrTom]

Sealed, that bh209 should be as good as the day you bought it.

Your other comments remind me of a little jingle I heard as a kid...."the arm bone is connected to the shoulder bone, the shoulder bone is connected to the neck bone......". Its sort of like that with muzzleloaders. Everything is seldom independent enough to not affect some other aspect. Powders matter. Ignition sources matter. Bullets matter. Cleaning matters. Its all relevant. I guess its a matter of perspective too that has so many willing to look pass the things that need so much attention to actually enjoy using these guns. I was limited to hunting with shotguns in the area I live in and did so for years and years. In all those years I was also shooting my black powder guns as those too were legal for deer. Over time the black powder went afield more than the shotgun and today all I hunt with is a muzzleloader and would never go back to a shotgun and its limits. The muzzleloader offers so much more freedom when one gets right down to the nitty-gritty of it and they actually encroach on some centerfires too. Inside of 300 yards using today's muzzleloaders for deer there isn't much that has a leg up on them and tons of elk have hit the dirt using muzzleloaders too.

When retired, I retired all of the shotguns and centerfires. I found I had time to really dig into what the mysteries of the muzzleloaders were and how to get on the top of what they offered. This site has been a phenomenal help to me even though I feel like a greenhorn much of the time. The one thing that goes right back to that little ditty song is that with muzzleloaders everything is relevant and connects directly with all other components. Finding the harmony is whats fun and when you get there its a whole new perspective.

 

[LFM]

Yes, I am Trying To keep up & Thru it again. As I was back when the 209 was Just Coming Out... Things were changing like the Lehigh Breech Plug Option...
I 'll slow my posting and just read what is offered. And Hope i can Keep Up with,Not much with the More tech stuff. As I am not with machining, sizes, etc as what ML is more about... Relative Okay And yes this a good Source for this Info as I have no calipers, scale and such...
LFM

 

[Chick]

777 is not bad as long as you realize you will get a crud ring and you wipe barrel in between shots.. which in reality is no big deal because if your shooting for accuracy/groups you should let the barrel cool between shots anyway so your groups don't open up..muzzle loading isn't supposed to be a fast paced sport where you load and shoot as fast as you can, its best to relax and take your time and enjoy it. I personally like the clean up on 777 much better then BH209 but prefer 209 for the same fact as you no swabbing and very consistent accuracy.
With 209 every so many shots you have to stop and clean out flame channel on breech plug plus you have to be consistent in loading pressure with it so there are trade offs with any powder.

You just documented the problems with 777. I bought my first ML in 1975, and been through a number of them, and on my 5th In Line. I have put 50 shots through my CVA Accura, with BH209, without doing anything to it, and no accuracy losses and no cleaning the barrel. The bullet/sabot was not any harder pushing down the barrel, the last time, than it was on the 2nd shot. As BH209 does not generate the heat that smokeless powder does, the time lapse between shots, looking at the target and loading, is generally enough that there is not a problem with barrel heat. Especially, as I am generally shooting more than one rifle. As far as clean up goes, cleaning up after BH209 is much easier and faster than the 777. Seriously, I was ready to quit in-line altogether, from the issues with 777. Since BH209, I am happy as can be. I use CCI209M primers and never had an issue with breech plug plugging. I do clean it on occasion, just like I have with all other ML, but I have never seen an issue with the BH209. With the BP design on the CVA Accura, plugging the BP is quick and easy anyway.

 

[Chick]

[QUOTE I shot T7 for the last 5 years and with that specific rifle, it cleaned up faster and easier than I could ever clean it after shooting BH.[/QUOTE]

I can't imagine anyone cleaning up 777 faster or easier than BH209. The clean up and getting the 777 crud ring out, was such a pain, is only one reason I am so disgusted with that mess.

 

[ENCORE50A]

[QUOTE I shot T7 for the last 5 years and with that specific rifle, it cleaned up faster and easier than I could ever clean it after shooting BH.

I can't imagine anyone cleaning up 777 faster or easier than BH209. The clean up and getting the 777 crud ring out, was such a pain, is only one reason I am so disgusted with that mess.[/QUOTE]

I shoot thousands of rounds through my BP Xpress and go through many cases of T7 yearly with charges of 180grs. I can completely clean the rifle after a session with 5 or 6 patches. SPOTLESS CLEAN.
My last 5#'s of BH I went through in just two months. Its impossible to clean the rifle with just 5 or 6 patches using BH.

I'm not indicating BH isn't a great propellant, nor am I indicating T7 is better than BH. I guess what I am saying is, if you know how to use T7 and how to clean it, its not the worst propellant by far. The photo in my avatar was shot with T7. I'd say it works well when you can put 5 in a 1.5" group at 400yds.