Ram Rod got stuck in Barrel while hunting!

[Farmingdales Finest]

I won an Optima V2 in October and on Monday this week I hunted with it for the first time.

My gun was sighted in at 50 yards with Hornady Xtp's with the 44 cal bullet and they were touching in the bull. I found at the range that no matter how hard I tried I couldn't get a third bullet seated on the powder. It would come up short between 1/8 and 1/4" above the powder based upon my mark on my range rod. I underestimated the distance to a deer and hit it low twice. Not proud of what happened but my 1 month old range finder wouldn't range past 35 yards for some reason. So after two shots I knew from practice that I had to swab the barrel. I went to do this and the jag got stuck and I couldn't pull it back up. This whole time the deer is now closer and standing broadside and I am having a mini meltdown because I had the time to load a 3rd bullet but couldn't! Fortunately it made it about 60 yards down the field edge and another hunter was able to put it down.

After that, I was able to think clearly and realized I could unscrew the ram rod, take the breech plug out and push the jag back up the barrel and pull it out. I was using 777 pellets because the store was out of BH 209 and said they didn't expect to get anymore this year. How do I avoid this going forward? Is it as simple as using BH 209 as many have said or is there something more? I would never have expected being able to get two let alone 3 possible shots but that was my first experience. The next day I went out and had no drama with the same combo. I shot my best public land buck at 50 yards off hand. It ran 20 or so yards and dropped. It was awesome! I have exclusively bowhunted until this week since 1991. Looking forward to what you would suggest trying to avoid this possibly happening again.

I also called the store I got the gun and they said they had 777 powder in FFFG which several people said to get if I couldn't get BH 209. I also was was told not to get the FFg powder. The XTp's are very accurate but hard to load. Should I look at the .45 cal XTP's with the black sabot or something else? Most shots won't even be 100 yards.

Thanks' in advance!

Here’s pictures of both bucks.

 

[Clairebear]

You will always have that crud circle. I shoot 85 weighed grains and the crud is a whole lot less than using 100. After a shot if I don't need to make a hurried 2nd shot I pull the breach and swab a few times with the little foil sealed isopropyl alcohol patches that they wipe your arm with before getting a needle. It dries fast and loads easy then.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

Congrats on those two bucks.

You got the classic “Crud Ring”. Run a wet spit patch and gently work at that ring. 4-5 pokes at it should be enough to loosen it and then a dry patch. Then it’ll load like a clean barrel.

 

[MrTom]

I'd stick with that bullet but use a green crush rib sabot. I'd also stick with the granular fffg T7 powder. As mentioned, you are getting a crud ring but the fffg isn't quite as bad as ffg or pellets can get, you'll still need to run a damp patch after each shot to bust up the crud ring. I'd keep both eyes open for any available BH209 and grab a jug when you can. I shoot T7 fffg at the range where swabbing between shots is not a problem and hunt with the BH209 to enjoy some of the benefits that T7 products don't share.

 

[Farmingdales Finest]

Congrats on those two bucks.

You got the classic “Crud Ring”. Run a wet spit patch and gently work at that ring. 4-5 pokes at it should be enough to loosen it and then a dry patch. Then it’ll load like a clean barrel.

Will switching to loose powder allow me to shoot more than two in a row if need be? I plan on swabbing after every shot while practicing going forward. Some people told me to put bore butter in my barrel but with what I had read that seemed to be more for a hawken type gun and not really a modern muzzy. Then if it would help when and how do I do it? Just put some on a patch between shots? I can’t imagine it being a good idea vs. oiling the barrel after cleaning it to put away before the next time I shoot.

Assuming powder is the solution what would be best practices? I figured since I have a grain scale from archery weighing and putting the same weight in to separate vials for hunting and having one or two with multiple bullets. But then not sure what to do at the range after I used up what I have in the vials? Should I get the BH 209 breech plug for the 777 and will i need to use a different primer than the Federal 209 MZ's that I am using now?

I have a lot to learn!

 

[Farmingdales Finest]

I'd stick with that bullet but use a green crush rib sabot. I'd also stick with the granular fffg T7 powder. As mentioned, you are getting a crud ring but the fffg isn't quite as bad as ffg or pellets can get, you'll still need to run a damp patch after each shot to bust up the crud ring. I'd keep both eyes open for any available BH209 and grab a jug when you can. I shoot T7 fffg at the range where swabbing between shots is not a problem and hunt with the BH209 to enjoy some of the benefits that T7 products don't share.

Thank you. So the velocities between the two powders are close enough that there won’t be any issue?

 

[MrTom]

Thank you. So the velocities between the two powders are close enough that there won’t be any issue?

Grain for grain, right.

In my Accua v2 .50 cal I shoot 77 weighed grains of BH209 with a 250 grain Barnes XPB bullet in a black sabot....hunting. At the range I shoot 77 weighed grains of T7 fffg, black sabot and the same bullet. POI and accuracy identical. My Optima pistol shoots 63 grains of BH with a green sabot and a .429 225 grain XPB Barnes in the deer woods....same everything except T7 fffg at the club. Identical.

T7 ffg is slower burning, dirtier and does not mirror the BH loads in either gun.

I have a .45 cal Kodiak that likes the T7 ffg better than fffg, but it likes BH209 a whole lot better at the same charge weight as T7 fffg with a 195 or 200 grain .40 cal bullet in a light blue sabot.

 

[Steelheader323]

Short and fast strokes with the ramrod will help keep it from getting stuck..or you get halfway down and find it harder to move back out and swap out patches

 

[Farmingdales Finest]

Grain for grain, right.

In my Accua v2 .50 cal I shoot 77 weighed grains of BH209 with a 250 grain Barnes XPB bullet in a black sabot....hunting. At the range I shoot 77 weighed grains of T7 fffg, black sabot and the same bullet. POI and accuracy identical. My Optima pistol shoots 63 grains of BH with a green sabot and a .429 225 grain XPB Barnes in the deer woods....same everything except T7 fffg at the club. Identical.

T7 ffg is slower burning, dirtier and does not mirror the BH loads in either gun.

I have a .45 cal Kodiak that likes the T7 ffg better than fffg, but it likes BH209 a whole lot better at the same charge weight as T7 fffg with a 195 or 200 grain .40 cal bullet in a light blue sabot.

This is great info thanks so much!

Will switching to loose powder allow me to shoot more than two in a row if need be? I plan on swabbing after every shot while practicing going forward. Some people told me to put bore butter in my barrel but with what I had read that seemed to be more for ball and patch Hawken gun and not really a modern muzzy. Then if it would help when and how do I do it? Just put some on a patch between shots? I can’t imagine it being a good idea vs. oiling the barrel after cleaning it to put away before the next time I shoot.

Assuming powder is the solution what would be best practices? I figured since I have a grain scale from archery weighing and putting the same weight in to separate vials for hunting and having one or two vials with multiple bullets. But then not sure what to do at the range after I used up what I have in the vials? Should I get the BH 209 breech plug for the 777 and will I need to use a different primer than the Federal 209 MZ's that I am using now?

Thanks again!

 

[michiganmuzzy]

Will switching to loose powder allow me to shoot more than two in a row if need be? I plan on swabbing after every shot while practicing going forward. Some people told me to put bore butter in my barrel but with what I had read that seemed to be more for a hawken type gun and not really a modern muzzy. Then if it would help when and how do I do it? Just put some on a patch between shots? I can’t imagine it being a good idea vs. oiling the barrel after cleaning it to put away before the next time I shoot.

Assuming powder is the solution what would be best practices? I figured since I have a grain scale from archery weighing and putting the same weight in to separate vials for hunting and having one or two with multiple bullets. But then not sure what to do at the range after I used up what I have in the vials? Should I get the BH 209 breech plug for the 777 and will i need to use a different primer than the Federal 209 MZ's that I am using now?

I have a lot to learn!

As long as you use T7 you will probably get the crud ring. Pyrodex supposedly does it some, too. A milder primer (muzzleloader specific 209)will decrease the amount, a #11 primer will minimize it a lot more. Some have said that the White Hots don't leave much, if any, deposit ring in there. To my knowledge real black and bh209 are the only powders that don't.

 

[Shorty]

Farmingdale F, good to hear you expanded your Verizon and are a muzzy junkie now..using the search bar at the top of the page will get you a lot of answers quickly. If you go to the Hodgdons website you can buy yourself a jug for hunting also. Good luck and nice bucks.. ps call me when the steaks are on the grill and the beer is on ice….

 

[biggamehunter78]

Will switching to loose powder allow me to shoot more than two in a row if need be?

No. If it’s T7 loose or pellets you’ll get a crud ring. Swab between shots is the only way to prevent it. The Federal BorLoc claims they will cut crud upon loading, I’ve not shot them enough to see if that really works.

The other thing to do is experiment with primers, some lower heat primers will leave less of a crud ring with T7 like Michigan muzzy said.

In my experience 3F will make a larger crud ring than 2F, especially with a hot primer. Not sure where you got the info to use 3F from.

Also, it should go without saying if your ramrod isn’t down to the witness mark, you should NEVER SHOOT THE GUN. You’ve got an air pocket that could overpressurize the barrel/chamber and be extremely dangerous.

 

[Farmingdales Finest]

No. If it’s T7 loose or pellets you’ll get a crud ring. Swab between shots is the only way to prevent it. The Federal BorLoc claims they will cut crud upon loading, I’ve not shot them enough to see if that really works.

The other thing to do is experiment with primers, some lower heat primers will leave less of a crud ring with T7 like Michigan muzzy said.

In my experience 3F will make a larger crud ring than 2F, especially with a hot primer. Not sure where you got the info to use 3F from.

Also, it should go without saying if your ramrod isn’t down to the witness mark, you should NEVER SHOOT THE GUN. You’ve got an air pocket that could overpressurize the barrel/chamber and be extremely dangerous.

I am shooting Federal 209 MZ primers which I believe are lower heat primers. But then don't I need a hotter primer for loose powder? That's what it seems like with all of the video's I have been watching. The video's I am referencing are from companies that are manufacturers or online sales. So not some random guy on the internet. It's all very confusing to someone new to this.

When I read I believe it was on Muzzle-loaders.com about powder it said fffg burned cleaner than ffg. Many people have echoed the same thing to me. I have no idea being so new. Also just thinking with a hotter ignition and fire I would expect more and better efficiency of the powder being burned up similar to a hot fire in a wood burning stove and having nothing but fine ash vs. chunks of unburned wood.

I am aware about not shooting with a gap in the seat and why I did try and swab the barrel while hunting only to have the jag get stuck.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

I am shooting Federal 209 MZ primers which I believe are lower heat primers. But then don't I need a hotter primer for loose powder? That's what it seems like with all of the video's I have been watching. The video's I am referencing are from companies that are manufacturers or online sales. So not some random guy on the internet. It's all very confusing to someone new to this.

When I read I believe it was on Muzzle-loaders.com about powder it said fffg burned cleaner than ffg. Many people have echoed the same thing to me. I have no idea being so new. Also just thinking with a hotter ignition and fire I would expect more and better efficiency of the powder being burned up similar to a hot fire in a wood burning stove and having nothing but fine ash vs. chunks of unburned wood.

I am aware about not shooting with a gap in the seat and why I did try and swab the barrel while hunting only to have the jag get stuck.

I think the Triple Se7en brand primers are even milder. T7 is easy to ignite in powder or pellet form. not quite as easy as real black, but much easier than bh209.

 

[ElDiablo]

Also just thinking with a hotter ignition and fire I would expect more and better efficiency of the powder being burned up similar to a hot fire in a wood burning stove and having nothing but fine ash vs. chunks of unburned wood.

Yeah, that seems intuitive but not so with 777 (as stated by others above). You get a lot less fouling with a milder ignition such as a #11 cap when using 777.

 

[MrTom]

In my experience 3F will make a larger crud ring than 2F, especially with a hot primer. Not sure where you got the info to use 3F from.

Not in my 50's and I use the W209 primers. If I wanted to pass on the wiping between shots I could get three rounds down without any issues, but I still wipe out the barrel after each shot. The .45 Kodiak does not seem to like 3f and cruds badly with one shot but the 50's don't have issues so much with the crud ring and 3f. To be clear, this is at the range. BH209 goes hunting.

 

[biggamehunter78]

I think the Triple Se7en brand primers are even milder.

You get a lot less fouling with a milder ignition such as a #11 cap when using 777.

Both of these. I was going to suggest T7 primers. They’re less hot but dirtier. My old man uses them and can get 3 shots without swabbing to my one with W209s. Depends what your gun likes too.

What bullets/sabots you’re using also have an impact on what you can get down the barrel when it’s dirty.

When I read I believe it was on Muzzle-loaders.com about powder it said fffg burned cleaner than ffg. Many people have echoed the same thing to me.

Not sure there’s any factual evidence behind this.

I’m pretty sure there’s a primer strength chart in one of the threads on this forum somewhere. El Diablo weren’t you involved in that??

One last thing I’ve found, first/second shot crud ring can be impacted by what you clean and lube your rifle with also (bore butter, various types of gun oils, etc.). Also what barrel steel it is and finish, yada, yada, yada.

 

[ElDiablo]

I’m pretty sure there’s a primer strength chart in one of the threads on this forum somewhere. El Diablo weren’t you involved in that??

Not involved in creation of any of the charts. But, there are lots of them floating around.

 

[MrTom]

One last thing I’ve found, first/second shot crud ring can be impacted by what you clean and lube your rifle with also (bore butter, various types of gun oils, etc.).

There's a ton of truth in this statement!

 

[Farmingdales Finest]

There's a ton of truth in this statement!

I am cleaning with a presoaked CVA Bore Buster patch as well as a copper brush. I used my Hoppes oil in the barrel to store it after the last time at the range about 2 weeks before. The night before I cleaned and dried it again. I popped two caps the night before because the park system won't let you in the parking lot. Also the night before I loaded the pellets and ran the sabot down. When I got to the stand in the morning I put the primer in.

Should I have done something different?