You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Sabots for 20ga
- Thread starter Banerbird
- Start date
Help Support Modern Muzzleloading Forum:
This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate
links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Choc-dog... you said you're picking up hulls from the range. How do you re-roll crimp them? Is there any prep work before crimp? I'd like to reuse my hulls, but I didn't think roll crimp hulls could be rolled.
I did try to fold crimp (MEC Jr.) since the slug was just below the sabot, but 3 tries resulted in buckling just above the brass. I adjusted the crimper depth in hopes it would not buckle, but no luck. Maybe I need to adjust more? On the 12ga, I was able to fold crimp just fine on the slugs that sat at or just below the sabot, so maybe I need to use 1 less nitro card?
I did try to fold crimp (MEC Jr.) since the slug was just below the sabot, but 3 tries resulted in buckling just above the brass. I adjusted the crimper depth in hopes it would not buckle, but no luck. Maybe I need to adjust more? On the 12ga, I was able to fold crimp just fine on the slugs that sat at or just below the sabot, so maybe I need to use 1 less nitro card?
Banerbird,
I found Slugs 'R' Us, has 20 ga. Sabot Pressure Wad. It uses .44 cal bullets vs. 45. Here is the link if the CCS doesn't work for you.
http://slugsrus.com/store/product76.html
I would be interested in how the CCS works out for you. I have been looking at reloading slugs for a year, but I keep reading that accuracy is real hard to come by.
I found Slugs 'R' Us, has 20 ga. Sabot Pressure Wad. It uses .44 cal bullets vs. 45. Here is the link if the CCS doesn't work for you.
http://slugsrus.com/store/product76.html
I would be interested in how the CCS works out for you. I have been looking at reloading slugs for a year, but I keep reading that accuracy is real hard to come by.
I also loaded some 300gr Deep Curls (50cal slugs left over from the 12ga loads) in their 50cal sabots with 19gr Longshot. I only loaded 3 of each. I'm debating on also loading the 250gr DC with 25gr Longshot to see what happens.
My first step is to put up a target at 50yds and see how tight they group. Once I'm happy, I'll load more to zero in and then figure out velocity based on trajectory, since I don't have a chronograph. So it will take a couple weeks to figure out. I'll post pics and figures when I'm done.
My first step is to put up a target at 50yds and see how tight they group. Once I'm happy, I'll load more to zero in and then figure out velocity based on trajectory, since I don't have a chronograph. So it will take a couple weeks to figure out. I'll post pics and figures when I'm done.
Bannerbird,
Where did you get the Hodgdon "longshot" powder data for the 20 gauge slugs???
To answer your question, you cannot" fold" crimp on the slug loads NOR convert a fold crimp to a roll crimp. Done that and it does not work.
I bought a 20 gauge roll crimp and the table mounted base from Ballistic Products in Minnasota. The table mounted was worth the $20.00+ dollars to hold the shell perfectly straight as the roll crimp is being "roll" drilled into place.
If your roll crimp is not applied perfectly straight the crimp will be lop sided placing uneven pressure on the top edge of the sabot. If you do not have the proper staight wall cases you can buy "Fiocchi" cases from ballistic products.....about $12.00 per hundred.
I can reload the range pick-up Hornady 20 gauge cases about 3 times with a roll crimp. The roll crimp actually uses heat to roll the crimp from the friction from the roll crimp die which does burn the end of the case that is rolled, this reduces case life to 3 reloads.
Also after sizing the case and seating a primer. I expand the case mouth in a 12 gauge Mec 600 jr. loader sizing station ever so slightly to expand the case mouth so the CSS gas seal and fiber wads can be inserted by hand much easier saving my fingers. After insertion I compress the load in a 20 gauge Mec 600 jr. loader wad seating die ( station #2) to have the proper compression on the load.
Greg
Where did you get the Hodgdon "longshot" powder data for the 20 gauge slugs???
To answer your question, you cannot" fold" crimp on the slug loads NOR convert a fold crimp to a roll crimp. Done that and it does not work.
I bought a 20 gauge roll crimp and the table mounted base from Ballistic Products in Minnasota. The table mounted was worth the $20.00+ dollars to hold the shell perfectly straight as the roll crimp is being "roll" drilled into place.
If your roll crimp is not applied perfectly straight the crimp will be lop sided placing uneven pressure on the top edge of the sabot. If you do not have the proper staight wall cases you can buy "Fiocchi" cases from ballistic products.....about $12.00 per hundred.
I can reload the range pick-up Hornady 20 gauge cases about 3 times with a roll crimp. The roll crimp actually uses heat to roll the crimp from the friction from the roll crimp die which does burn the end of the case that is rolled, this reduces case life to 3 reloads.
Also after sizing the case and seating a primer. I expand the case mouth in a 12 gauge Mec 600 jr. loader sizing station ever so slightly to expand the case mouth so the CSS gas seal and fiber wads can be inserted by hand much easier saving my fingers. After insertion I compress the load in a 20 gauge Mec 600 jr. loader wad seating die ( station #2) to have the proper compression on the load.
Greg
Greg
To come up with the 23.5 and 25gr powder charge, I used a ratio of Blue Dot to Longshot based on other load data for different velocities for those powders (averaged .76). I took that ratio to figure out my load based on the load data provided by CCS for Blue Dot.
I did get the Fiocchi hulls, the shell vise, and roll crimper from Ballistic Products. They do roll nice, but I had to do a couple over due to the learning process. I was just curious how you re-roll crimped a shell previously roll crimped.
Thanks for the info.
Dane
To come up with the 23.5 and 25gr powder charge, I used a ratio of Blue Dot to Longshot based on other load data for different velocities for those powders (averaged .76). I took that ratio to figure out my load based on the load data provided by CCS for Blue Dot.
I did get the Fiocchi hulls, the shell vise, and roll crimper from Ballistic Products. They do roll nice, but I had to do a couple over due to the learning process. I was just curious how you re-roll crimped a shell previously roll crimped.
Thanks for the info.
Dane
Dane,
The longshot powder does burn much cleaner as compared to bluedot powder. After 5 shots of slug loads at the range using bluedot the bore is dark with un-burned powder.
I tried the Hornady 300 gr XTP in my 20 gauge pro hunter barrel which shot well at 50 yards but failed to equal the 250gr. bullet in accuracy at 100 yards.
Greg
The longshot powder does burn much cleaner as compared to bluedot powder. After 5 shots of slug loads at the range using bluedot the bore is dark with un-burned powder.
I tried the Hornady 300 gr XTP in my 20 gauge pro hunter barrel which shot well at 50 yards but failed to equal the 250gr. bullet in accuracy at 100 yards.
Greg
Greg,
Just curious. What do the sabots look like after you shoot with the 31 grains of Blue Dot? I shot 3 different loads this weekend with mediocre results. I only found one sabot entact. I found 3 others that were barely entact. All the others, I could only find petals on the ground. So I think that that might be a reason for the lack luster accuracy. The 300gr load was about 4-5 inches, the 250gr bullet w/ 23.6gr powder was about 3-4 inches, and the 250gr bullet w/ 25gr powder only 1 shot hit a 4x5 ft piece of paper @ 50 yds (3 shots for each load).
My guess is I'm pushing them too fast (based on my ML experience), so I'll probably drop the load by a grain or 2 and see what happens.
Just curious. What do the sabots look like after you shoot with the 31 grains of Blue Dot? I shot 3 different loads this weekend with mediocre results. I only found one sabot entact. I found 3 others that were barely entact. All the others, I could only find petals on the ground. So I think that that might be a reason for the lack luster accuracy. The 300gr load was about 4-5 inches, the 250gr bullet w/ 23.6gr powder was about 3-4 inches, and the 250gr bullet w/ 25gr powder only 1 shot hit a 4x5 ft piece of paper @ 50 yds (3 shots for each load).
My guess is I'm pushing them too fast (based on my ML experience), so I'll probably drop the load by a grain or 2 and see what happens.
Savage says the twist is 1-24" and I'm not very familiar with the types of crowns. I just shoot what's given to me. But the end of the barrel is flat all the way across.
I'm hoping to get out again soon with different loads. I'm going to try 20, 21, and 22 grains with the 250gr bullet. I'm hoping that my accuracy was blown because the velocity was too high (due to the condition of the sabots).
I'm not very familiar with the different powders and their characteristics. I looked at the different types online and compared the descriptions. Based on what I found, the best for higher velocities were Longshot, Blue Dot, and 800X. I've always reloaded Clays for trapshooting, so not much off hand knowledge. I've heard that Longshot is cleaner than Blue Dot from several people (including you), but when I looked down the barrel after shooting 9 shots, there was a lot of unburned powder and things were dirty. So based on that, from my experiences, that means too much powder.
I'll keep trying. If I don't find a good combo with the Longshot, I'll try Blue Dot or 800X. I'm having fun finding out what works and what doesn't. So far I've found out what doesn't.
I'm hoping to get out again soon with different loads. I'm going to try 20, 21, and 22 grains with the 250gr bullet. I'm hoping that my accuracy was blown because the velocity was too high (due to the condition of the sabots).
I'm not very familiar with the different powders and their characteristics. I looked at the different types online and compared the descriptions. Based on what I found, the best for higher velocities were Longshot, Blue Dot, and 800X. I've always reloaded Clays for trapshooting, so not much off hand knowledge. I've heard that Longshot is cleaner than Blue Dot from several people (including you), but when I looked down the barrel after shooting 9 shots, there was a lot of unburned powder and things were dirty. So based on that, from my experiences, that means too much powder.
I'll keep trying. If I don't find a good combo with the Longshot, I'll try Blue Dot or 800X. I'm having fun finding out what works and what doesn't. So far I've found out what doesn't.
I forgot to mention... I'm also going to try the 23.5gr powder again, but this time, I'm changing the wad card. I picked up some 1/2" wax cards to see if it would work instead of using four 1/8" nitro cards. I only loaded the 1/2" wax card the first time.
Bannerbird,
I have been thinking about your previous post. I wonder if the gas seal and sabot are "undersized" for your bore? The reason I think this is the amount of powder burn you have on the sabot.
You might try removing the bolt and inserting a bulet/sabot and pushing it thru the bore to score the rifling to the sabot. If the sabot is a loose fit as you push it thru the bore you oviously will not have any resistance.
The only other consideration is you may not have enough velocity in your loads.
Greg
I have been thinking about your previous post. I wonder if the gas seal and sabot are "undersized" for your bore? The reason I think this is the amount of powder burn you have on the sabot.
You might try removing the bolt and inserting a bulet/sabot and pushing it thru the bore to score the rifling to the sabot. If the sabot is a loose fit as you push it thru the bore you oviously will not have any resistance.
The only other consideration is you may not have enough velocity in your loads.
Greg
I pushed the gas seal through the barrel and it was snug and engaged the rifling very well. I couldn't get the sabot pushed through. I actually couldn't get it started it was so tight. My guess is that everything is engaging the rifling fine. Thanks for having me check that out.
I'll try a few other powder charges and the different nitro cards (vs the wax card) and go from there.
I'll try a few other powder charges and the different nitro cards (vs the wax card) and go from there.
I haven't been back to the range yet, but I think I might have figured out what the problem was. The first loads, when the load was assembled, before crimping, I used a rod to press everything together. So my guess is that the pressure against the powder was inconsistent. On the loads I just did, I used my Mec loader on the shot/powder/wad station and was able to do a full lever cycle (or whatever you call it) and get equal seating pressure for each load. I was actually able to compress everything an additional 1/64" (completely eyeball measure) more than what I was getting by hand.
Now I just need to find range time. Between weather and being busy, my range time is at a premium. I loaded 3 w/ 21gr powder, 3 w/ 23.5gr, and 3 with 25gr.
Now I just need to find range time. Between weather and being busy, my range time is at a premium. I loaded 3 w/ 21gr powder, 3 w/ 23.5gr, and 3 with 25gr.
Greg,
I think I found a couple good loads, but have a question. Can you send me a pic of the gas-seal you use? I've found quite a few seals at the range that look "blown out" one one edge. I'm thinking that's why I'm seeing irratic groups. What I have is the Obturator gas seal from BPI. If yours is different, I might get some from CCS when I order more sabots.
Last Saturday, I had 2 different loads shoot ragged holes @50yds (20gr Longshot with a 45 cal 250gr Gold Dot and 21gr Longshot with a 50 cal 275gr Barnes). I loaded more the same way that afternoon and then Sunday morning, they were 3-4" groups @50yds. The couple seals I found on Sunday were blown out on one side.
In the meantime, I'm going to try the same loads, but with a little less wad pressure.
Thanks,
Dane
I think I found a couple good loads, but have a question. Can you send me a pic of the gas-seal you use? I've found quite a few seals at the range that look "blown out" one one edge. I'm thinking that's why I'm seeing irratic groups. What I have is the Obturator gas seal from BPI. If yours is different, I might get some from CCS when I order more sabots.
Last Saturday, I had 2 different loads shoot ragged holes @50yds (20gr Longshot with a 45 cal 250gr Gold Dot and 21gr Longshot with a 50 cal 275gr Barnes). I loaded more the same way that afternoon and then Sunday morning, they were 3-4" groups @50yds. The couple seals I found on Sunday were blown out on one side.
In the meantime, I'm going to try the same loads, but with a little less wad pressure.
Thanks,
Dane
I forgot to mention, thanks for the offer on the Blue Dot loads. I'm determined to find a good load with Longshot so there's more load data available. I did buy some Blue Dot to play with after I figure out the Longshot. Unfortunately, I haven't had a whole lot of time to play at the range. When I do find time, the weather's either too rainy or windy.
Dane,
I have not had "erratic" groups with the blue dot loads I use. All of my loads are consistant in group size. I wonder is you are not getting the same crimp each time?
Is you bullet tip sticking above the case after crimping?? My bullet tip does but I am shooting a T/C pro hunter so it does not matter.
I am using the "CSS" gas seal applying enough pressure to set the gas seal on top of the powder. If you are finding burnt gas seals on the ground after firing MAYBE an indication of blow by of powder gases which
could be an indication of over bore size or simply just normal powder burn.
You could consider adding another fiber wad to your load to raise the height of the sabot/bulet load and then crimping the case which will use more of the upper edge of the case as it is rolled crimped into the sabot.
What is your velocity on your longshot loads??
Chocdog
I have not had "erratic" groups with the blue dot loads I use. All of my loads are consistant in group size. I wonder is you are not getting the same crimp each time?
Is you bullet tip sticking above the case after crimping?? My bullet tip does but I am shooting a T/C pro hunter so it does not matter.
I am using the "CSS" gas seal applying enough pressure to set the gas seal on top of the powder. If you are finding burnt gas seals on the ground after firing MAYBE an indication of blow by of powder gases which
could be an indication of over bore size or simply just normal powder burn.
You could consider adding another fiber wad to your load to raise the height of the sabot/bulet load and then crimping the case which will use more of the upper edge of the case as it is rolled crimped into the sabot.
What is your velocity on your longshot loads??
Chocdog
Similar threads
- Replies
- 10
- Views
- 3K
- Replies
- 135
- Views
- 29K
- Replies
- 7
- Views
- 861
- Replies
- 23
- Views
- 5K
