Savage SML Blowup with 5744

[52Bore]

There was a ML accident in my area 2 weeks ago Nov.14, just so happens a gentleman who works with me knows the individual that lost his hand. My coworker told me the story on Monday after and I had many questions, especially about his load. But, my coworker is not a ML/gun nut, so he was limited on what the guy was doing. So, yesterday my coworker told me he had talked to him on Thanksgiving and asked that I call.
He is doing well (40yrs old) considering the situation, he's just lucky and thankful it was only his hand and not his sons (16) and life moves on.
Story:
He and his son both have had/used their Savage SML for 4 years or so - no issues.
Their load is 40gr Accurate 5744, Hornady 240gr w/sabot, 209 primer.
His son went hunting and shot at a deer but the bullet barley left the barrel - his son said he saw the bullet go out of the barrel 20' or so.
His son came back to the house where he and his son removed the breech plug, pushed the powder and sabot out the barrel (no bullet). He used a torch tip cleaner to clean out the breech plug.
Reloaded with 40gr 5744, 209 primer (no bullet) went outside and POP, no powder ignition.
Removed breech plug again and pushed out the load. This time the breech plug was clogged and could not be clean out with the tip cleaner, so he used a small drill (about the same size he said) and drilled out the clogged breech plug.
Reloaded with 40gr again (no bullet), 209 primer - POP, another dud..
Tilted the muzzle down and powder came out. By now he can't understand how the primer is going off and the powder is not - thinking the breech area is too oiled or the powder is bad, he pours 'a little' down the bore. (He said he knows how little 40gr is and didn't think he put much in). Installs a 209 primer to try to get any kind of ignition. He's holding the rifle horizontal 'hip shot' (as he stated) and BOOM, the gun blows apart along with his hand.

His hand had to be amputated at the wrist and he knows he did wrong in pouring powder down the barrel, but he can't believe the gun blew up without a bullet.

 

[GM54-120]

Sorry but i don't believe it is possible to do with only smokeless powder in the barrel. There is more to this story.

The rumor mill says it was 2 bullets and 2 powder charges.
http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/black-p ... ge-ml.html

https://www.facebook.com/groups/205248626303622/

 

[captaincaveman]

something ain't right...with no projectile there wouldn't be sufficient pressure to blow up anything

 

[Al-53]

true...there was no pressure build up with no bullet...like said more to the story...thats his lawyer story he is telling...i would bet it was a double load ..or just double powder...5744 does build hi pressure..but slow...

there is a post on dougs where a guy is loading 56 grains of 5744 ...thats alot...so 40 is the safe load...savage says 44 is the book load for the rifle with 5744

Al

 

[Squeeze]

double load, or a barrel obstruction, no doubt. Thats always the bottom line in failure, weather or not the poor victim wants to admit it. Arrowhead sporting did some testing on their new plug, and tried to get a failure. I think it took a double or triple load before it blew. and the barrel gave before the plug, as usually happens. I feel terrible for the guy, But I still have to blame user error.
his tests were with H4198. But the barrel survived 140 grn load with a 300 grn bullet. It took 200 grn load to finally cause failure. That had to be a several inch powder column in the barrel.
Witness marks on the ramrod save lives.

 

[GM54-120]

43gr of 5744 is the calibration load on Dougs for his RSI pressure traces. That load WITH a sabot and 250gr bullet creates 35Kpsi.

There is NO WAY that load will make 35Kpsi without a bullet or a barrel obstruction. Savage MLII barrels are proofed far higher than 35Kpsi. William Ball double charged a MLII with 5744 at a demonstration. The barrel did not fail.

http://ridgerunner20.tripod.com/thesava ... /id19.html

 

[Squeeze]

not sure if cross forum referencing is OK here. Delete if its a problem
http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/thread/17077/arrowhead-plug

 

[long shot]

Seems people should wonder why bullet came out and powder didn't ignite, not just once but twice. I have no reason to doubt the man. I know if I had another rifle I would spend a long time trying to get second one to blow.

 

[chaded]

The whole story is crazy. There is no way the gun would blow up with just powder in the barrel let alone blow the gun up, peel the barrel back like a banana, blow the scope in half, and blow his hand off. Sorry. Pouring powder down the barrel says a lot also. As far as just the bullet coming out who knows. The rest of the story is Certainly in question so I'm not real inclined to believe that we are getting an accurate story of how exactly things went. It is definitely sad he lost his hand and for that I do feel bad for him.

 

[GM54-120]

In the Facebook link i posted its been said there were 2 bullets and 2 charges loaded in the gun.

Same gun and same shoes in both pics.

Quotes are from Berry:

"One of the guys I shoot with is friends with the victim. He double loaded powder a two bullets." "This fellow lost one finger and was air lifted from catoosa WMA".

Something is very fishy about this story. Sounds to me like a lawyer has gotten involved.

 

[GM54-120]

Seems people should wonder why bullet came out and powder didn't ignite, not just once but twice. I have no reason to doubt the man. I know if I had another rifle I would spend a long time trying to get second one to blow.

Thats not what you posted in your first post. After the bullet just supposedly popped out of the sabot they did not load another bullet.

Reloaded with 40gr 5744, 209 primer (no bullet) went outside and POP, no powder ignition.
Removed breech plug again and pushed out the load. This time the breech plug was clogged and could not be clean out with the tip cleaner, so he used a small drill (about the same size he said) and drilled out the clogged breech plug.
Reloaded with 40gr again (no bullet), 209 primer - POP, another dud..

Not hard at all to figure out why just a sabot over powder or with a clogged breach plug wont ignite 5744. Smokeless requires pressure to ignite properly and a hotter ignition source than BP or subs.

Breach plugs don't clog after just one shot either. It was never properly cleaned the first time or before the hunt for that matter. A torch tip pick dont cut the mustard when cleaning a Savage plug. Someone who has been shooting a Savage MLII for 4 years should be very aware of this. A 5/32 bit is the correct tool for the job.

 

[Squeeze]

with that kind of barrel damage, it had to filled probably more than halfway with a charge column. Ive SEEN a double load. both powder and bullet in a savage, and that just caused about a 3-4 inch bulge. that had to be a huge load, and then maybe even a stuck bullet further down toward the crown. the way that barrel opens up like a banana is just way too catastrophic for a small overcharge. Look at the link I posted and the damage done from a 210 grain 4198 charge under a 300 grn bullet. pressure estimates over 100k psi and nothing close to that barrel damage. That was caused by a huge charge and probably a stuck bullet toward the crown, probably close to the point the barrel stops tearing. You really have to be careful, especially at a public range. Theres always the guy who wants to talk and socialize more than he is there to shoot. He starts asking questions, or complimenting your gun, JUST when your about 1/2 way through loading. You stop to talk, loose focus, forget where you were in the loading procedure... bad things start to happen.

 

[52Bore]

If anyone has seen anything posted previous about this accident to my post yesterday did not have the conversation with the man who was injured (I'm almost certain). Although I've known for 2 weeks, I didn't post prior to talking to him as I wanted to hear from him direct if I could - not from someone who knows someone, etc..

No one may know what really occurred, but I'd say we all have done something or forgot to do something when loading/shooting. I've never double loaded, but I've forgotten a bullet a few times at Friendship over the years - this is easily done when distracted by something or someone.

I have gone to the range and snapped a 209 primer and clogged my plug with only one primer, ended up snapping a few to no avail to get my rifle to go off (had to go home as I didn't have my socket to remove my breech plug, clean and remove my load) - so I relate to the guy on the stopped plug.

He agreed with pouring out of the can he didn't know if he poured 30gr or 300gr. I'm sure he and his son have run this thru their mind many times in the past weeks to figure out what they did to cause this.

I will probably touch base with him in a few months to see how he's doing. I too suggested to him that he might think of SAFELY repeating the event with his other ML - we'll see. If anything transpires, I'll be sure to pass it on.
Shoot safe everyone.

 

[52Bore]

I have never used 5744, but after Friday's call, I searched a little on the net. Read articles where is ignites easily and also where people have used it in cartridge guns and NfB loads. I'm assuming that the cartridge case is NOT full or under compression from the bullet; with that- how does Smokeless or BH209 powder ignite in a cartridge?

 

[long shot]

What i stated is what is wrote in the post. His son fired the rifle and primer popped the bullet out of the bore!!!!!!!!!! I've shot enough to know this can happen. I don't think anyone is stating that SLM is wrong.

 

[52Bore]

What i stated is what is wrote in the post. His son fired the rifle and primer popped the bullet out of the bore!!!!!!!!!! I've shot enough to know this can happen. I don't think anyone is stating that SLM is wrong.

fivebull: you comment on 'primer popped the bullet out of the bore'. I've personally witnessed this 3x in the past 2 years. 1 was a Knight Pro-staffer and the other 2 instances were at Friendship. I saw the pro-staffers (shooting my 500+ bullet -lead, full bore) bullet go out the barrel (we found it in the grass) the guys at Friendship swore they were loaded with their sabot/bullet. One of the guys sabot was left in the barrel a few inches from the muzzle. They all were shooting BH209.
To me, it's a phenomenon that is unexplainable - just like the guy who lost his hand asked: how can a primer blow a bullet out the barrel yet not ignite the powder?

 

[Hac]

I am by no means a expert with a muzzleloader I been hunting all my life I am 40 years old, I been loading centerfire ammo for 10+ years, this happened to me two day ago I recently purchased my first 2 Knights extreme from a board member here, I loaded 80 grains by weight of BH209 topped off with a barnes tez 290 grain and placed a win 209 primer, shot the weapon and nothing so I have never experienced this so I held the weapon pointing down range a bit, i opened the bolt and looked at the primer and the primer did torch off, I loaded another primer, same thing nothing, opened the bolt once again primer torched off, then I noticed the bullet and sabot was hanging out on the end of the barrel I grabbed my Leatherman pulled the projectile out popped a new primer and all the power poured out but looked different, the weapon was loaded after I popped 4 primers to foul up the barrel and was cleaned of oil prior to going out to the range at home, I have a omega and my kids now shoot omega, and I have two optima V2 that my kids started with and now two Knights, I also have a 28 gauge made by dixie gun works, never had any issue's with a hang fire till this my two cents from experience

 

[Al-53]

Hac..I had same issue with my Knight at the range..only my bullets came out an went 40 feet..I could see them exit...it happened twice that day with around 25 shots fired...do not know why..my loads were seated tight also...but a few range session later on it never did again...Now the scary part....I never took in consideration to check for any powder in barrel...so from now on I will dump the rifle when it happens..even though I use my witness mark I will still check it...I use Blackhorn also

my plugs are cleaned after each session and Alcohol used to dry them an blown out with air...barrels are never oiled unless long term storage...just cleaned an swabbed with Alky and dry patched...

Now I have a smokeless also..and I tell people no conversations while loading..talking and loading is accident waiting to happen...

Al

 

[bestill]

I exclusively shoot blackhorn and have during testing sabotless bullet fitting have encountered the primer expelling bullet with no powder ignition.. this scenario only happens when bullet fit is very loose
And also encountered this with yellow sabots in a 50 the slick easy load sabots fitting loose.
So i believe this happens when bullet is to loose to get good ignition pressure.

 

[Widude]

Yeah, to bad for the shooter, hopefully he recovers best he can.

I'll go with the 'double charge' or obstructed bore too.

I've never had a problem with M-Ls going back a good ways, besides a few misfires. Just think about what you are doing, and don't ask more of the gun than it was designed to handle.