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BuckDoeHunter said:
Knights manual says the same thing.
http://www.krwarranty.com/wp-content/up ... _29_11.pdf
Savage SML Blowup with 5744
- Thread starter 52Bore
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Help Support Modern Muzzleloading Forum:
Knights manual says the same thing.
http://www.krwarranty.com/wp-content/up ... _29_11.pdf
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T/C manual too.
https://www.tcarms.com/pdfs/uploads/man ... 5-2014.pdf
Page 24..Copy and paste isnt working well with that pdf
Seems like a very common warning to me.
https://www.tcarms.com/pdfs/uploads/man ... 5-2014.pdf
Page 24..Copy and paste isnt working well with that pdf
Seems like a very common warning to me.
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Great stuff, thank you all for looking.
I think we all can agree on an obstruction/bullet off powder can cause a burst - in any ML.
So, just thinking aloud - why does it seem that Savage has the reputation for blowing up most? (not counting the people who try smokeless in other ML)
Because of the pressures Smokeless can generate compared BP and other subs?
Smokeless based powders 'ignition issues' if things aren't just right (load tightness, seating, etc.?), by this I mean the ability to mis-fire therefor moving the bullet up the bore without the shooter knowing?
What else??
Thanks
I think we all can agree on an obstruction/bullet off powder can cause a burst - in any ML.
So, just thinking aloud - why does it seem that Savage has the reputation for blowing up most? (not counting the people who try smokeless in other ML)
Because of the pressures Smokeless can generate compared BP and other subs?
Smokeless based powders 'ignition issues' if things aren't just right (load tightness, seating, etc.?), by this I mean the ability to mis-fire therefor moving the bullet up the bore without the shooter knowing?
What else??
Thanks
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So i will throw this out there . Lets say you shoot a 50 cal with80 gr ffg blackpowder and 300 grain bullet . Boom all is well.
Imo that you could double load powder and 300 gr bullet and will kick more but gun will be fine
Or 80 gr powder and stack 2 bullets on top of each other gun will kick more but rifle will be fine.
Same scenario as above using smokeless 5744 powder and you've created a boom.
There's no doubt with smokeless muzzleloading room for error is not as forgiving as blackpowder
I for one truly enjoy my high performance blackhorn rifle and i dont take it for granted as should any Muzzleloader shooter.
I personally have a loading box that is laid out with each individual load laid out on bench to virtually eliminate loading errors not only for my safety but for all shooters at range.
Imo that you could double load powder and 300 gr bullet and will kick more but gun will be fine
Or 80 gr powder and stack 2 bullets on top of each other gun will kick more but rifle will be fine.
Same scenario as above using smokeless 5744 powder and you've created a boom.
There's no doubt with smokeless muzzleloading room for error is not as forgiving as blackpowder
I for one truly enjoy my high performance blackhorn rifle and i dont take it for granted as should any Muzzleloader shooter.
I personally have a loading box that is laid out with each individual load laid out on bench to virtually eliminate loading errors not only for my safety but for all shooters at range.
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Where is the data that lead you to this conclusion? I think ive heard of 4 or 5 total. One is very suspicious considering his threats to Henry Ball and Savage. Two or three ive heard about were admitted double bullet and double charge which would blow any ML even with subs. There was one with a badly bulged barrel from using very large doses of Lil Gun and a sub base which neither is recommended. Sub bases are specifically not allowed by Savage. That owner took full blame for the failure and was well aware that he was using experimental non approved loads.
Call 336-854-3925 to talk to Bill Ball. Im sure he has a ton more actual data than anyone here. If you want answers, he is the one that has them.
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"why would he lie?"
People lie all the time to save embarrassment from being the stupid individuals that the truly are
Like ALL of the previous blowups...USER error not the gun's design or metallurgy..
IF he truly believed it were the GUN"S fault, he would've already made a visit to his lawyer, and IF that lawyer thought there were ANY validity to his preposterous notion would've instructed him to shut his mouth and filed suit against Savage(which would be public record).
I throttled back my original statement...as pointed out, I was a little harsh.
Nobody deserves something as this as we all make mistakes, and I genuinely believe that IF the victim in this REALLY believed it was the gun's fault rather than his own, he wouldn't have posted pics etc..A lawyer would definitely have advised him to be quiet..
People lie all the time to save embarrassment from being the stupid individuals that the truly are
Like ALL of the previous blowups...USER error not the gun's design or metallurgy..
IF he truly believed it were the GUN"S fault, he would've already made a visit to his lawyer, and IF that lawyer thought there were ANY validity to his preposterous notion would've instructed him to shut his mouth and filed suit against Savage(which would be public record).
I throttled back my original statement...as pointed out, I was a little harsh.
Nobody deserves something as this as we all make mistakes, and I genuinely believe that IF the victim in this REALLY believed it was the gun's fault rather than his own, he wouldn't have posted pics etc..A lawyer would definitely have advised him to be quiet..
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cljohnson24
I think i have been very lenient about moderating threads in the smokeless section. Its the only section i do actually moderate unless Hal asks me.
Could i ask you to edit your post and tone it down just a tad please. I feel the person in question made a mistake too but i also feel some sympathy for him. Even those of us with tons of experience make novice mistakes once in awhile. The word "stupid" just seems a little bit harsh.
Thank you
I think i have been very lenient about moderating threads in the smokeless section. Its the only section i do actually moderate unless Hal asks me.
Could i ask you to edit your post and tone it down just a tad please. I feel the person in question made a mistake too but i also feel some sympathy for him. Even those of us with tons of experience make novice mistakes once in awhile. The word "stupid" just seems a little bit harsh.
Thank you
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GM:
To answer your question on why "it seems Savage has a reputation for blowing up".
I never owned an in-line until my good friend passed and his widow gave me his Encore (about 5 years ago)- I've made post about it here and wrote an article a few years ago that was just published this past February in MB. I have NO experience with SML.
Here it is"
1) over the 25-26 years I've been attending both NMLRA Matches each year, I can't recall hearing of a gun plowing up until the Smokeless came out (we didn't have the internet either) I do recall old timers talk about the Douglas barrels blowing up when they started using 12L14 as the material (this is screw stock material and they screwed-up!) I also recall the NMLRA position on the SML - Tom Schiffer (past president) and I are very close and talk / email often, he was a LRML shooter too. Since the 2000 you hear every now and then a story of either a Savage blowing up or someone trying to put smokeless in a non-smokeless ML - most all being in-lines.
2) During the 1st NMLRA In-line match in the spring of 2013, I met the guys from Knight - thought they were out of business. Then found they were 45 min from me. After the match, they approached me and bestill as we were 1st and 2nd or I should say 2nd & 1st. I don't know what they talked to him about, but they were intrigued by my shooting BP and PP bullets out of a std Encore 209x50 with a 4x scope and Jason D. outfit. The Knight guys and pro-staff did not fair well, they along with others who quit after 200 paper, not to shoot the silhouettes at all. The cold, windy day ended many shooters hopes. But, it became the start of many long discussions on LRML shooting - I was now teaching them. Over the following years EACH ONE of the Knight guys either bought from me or asked me to locate an older Knight 1:20 - Gordy E. was the only one who had one and I told him they did not have a rifle in their inventory that could outshoot these older 1:20's with BP and proper 500gr+ bullets. This lead to the discussions on the birth of the K500. Anyway, on multiple occasions when Gordy and I get on the topic about smokeless powders or going over 120/84 BH209 loads he told me " Savage had 146 lawsuits filed against them from 2000-2006 and that's why you'll never see another maker take the liability risk". He went on and I could go on forever, but that's why they will never recommend overloading BH209 or Smokeless. Unfortunately, due to many issues, Gordy is no longer with Knight.
3) How many stories have we hear over the years about a Savage ML blowing up because it had to be double loaded? If it's alway double loading, then why don't we hear stories of guys blowing regular in-line ML up from double loading - it certainly can't be a coincidence that ONLY Savage shooters are double loading.
4) After the local Savage incident and talking to the guy who lost his hand. I've been reading and trying to understand what happens to make one blow up? Here is one of many internet instances. One in particular stands out Palatka vs Savage 10ml-II US District Court (2009 in MI, I believe) although I don't agree with one of the experts Dr. abc who testified, the other Dr. xyz is certainly in reason.
Here is a photo of one of the pages within the court documents, note the number of incidents.
To answer your question on why "it seems Savage has a reputation for blowing up".
I never owned an in-line until my good friend passed and his widow gave me his Encore (about 5 years ago)- I've made post about it here and wrote an article a few years ago that was just published this past February in MB. I have NO experience with SML.
Here it is"
1) over the 25-26 years I've been attending both NMLRA Matches each year, I can't recall hearing of a gun plowing up until the Smokeless came out (we didn't have the internet either) I do recall old timers talk about the Douglas barrels blowing up when they started using 12L14 as the material (this is screw stock material and they screwed-up!) I also recall the NMLRA position on the SML - Tom Schiffer (past president) and I are very close and talk / email often, he was a LRML shooter too. Since the 2000 you hear every now and then a story of either a Savage blowing up or someone trying to put smokeless in a non-smokeless ML - most all being in-lines.
2) During the 1st NMLRA In-line match in the spring of 2013, I met the guys from Knight - thought they were out of business. Then found they were 45 min from me. After the match, they approached me and bestill as we were 1st and 2nd or I should say 2nd & 1st. I don't know what they talked to him about, but they were intrigued by my shooting BP and PP bullets out of a std Encore 209x50 with a 4x scope and Jason D. outfit. The Knight guys and pro-staff did not fair well, they along with others who quit after 200 paper, not to shoot the silhouettes at all. The cold, windy day ended many shooters hopes. But, it became the start of many long discussions on LRML shooting - I was now teaching them. Over the following years EACH ONE of the Knight guys either bought from me or asked me to locate an older Knight 1:20 - Gordy E. was the only one who had one and I told him they did not have a rifle in their inventory that could outshoot these older 1:20's with BP and proper 500gr+ bullets. This lead to the discussions on the birth of the K500. Anyway, on multiple occasions when Gordy and I get on the topic about smokeless powders or going over 120/84 BH209 loads he told me " Savage had 146 lawsuits filed against them from 2000-2006 and that's why you'll never see another maker take the liability risk". He went on and I could go on forever, but that's why they will never recommend overloading BH209 or Smokeless. Unfortunately, due to many issues, Gordy is no longer with Knight.
3) How many stories have we hear over the years about a Savage ML blowing up because it had to be double loaded? If it's alway double loading, then why don't we hear stories of guys blowing regular in-line ML up from double loading - it certainly can't be a coincidence that ONLY Savage shooters are double loading.
4) After the local Savage incident and talking to the guy who lost his hand. I've been reading and trying to understand what happens to make one blow up? Here is one of many internet instances. One in particular stands out Palatka vs Savage 10ml-II US District Court (2009 in MI, I believe) although I don't agree with one of the experts Dr. abc who testified, the other Dr. xyz is certainly in reason.
Here is a photo of one of the pages within the court documents, note the number of incidents.
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GM:
To answer your question on why "it seems Savage has a reputation for blowing up".
I never owned an in-line until my good friend passed and his widow gave me his Encore (about 5 years ago)- I've made post about it here and wrote an article a few years ago that was just published this past February in MB. I have NO experience with SML.
Here it is"
1) over the 25-26 years I've been attending both NMLRA Matches each year, I can't recall hearing of a gun plowing up until the Smokeless came out (we didn't have the internet either) I do recall old timers talk about the Douglas barrels blowing up when they started using 12L14 as the material (this is screw stock material and they screwed-up!) I also recall the NMLRA position on the SML - Tom Schiffer (past president) and I are very close and talk / email often, he was a LRML shooter too. Since the 2000 you hear every now and then a story of either a Savage blowing up or someone trying to put smokeless in a non-smokeless ML - most all being in-lines.
2) During the 1st NMLRA In-line match in the spring of 2013, I met the guys from Knight - thought they were out of business. Then found they were 45 min from me. After the match, they approached me and bestill as we were 1st and 2nd or I should say 2nd & 1st. I don't know what they talked to him about, but they were intrigued by my shooting BP and PP bullets out of a std Encore 209x50 with a 4x scope and Jason D. outfit. The Knight guys and pro-staff did not fair well, they along with others who quit after 200 paper, not to shoot the silhouettes at all. The cold, windy day ended many shooters hopes. But, it became the start of many long discussions on LRML shooting - I was now teaching them. Over the following years EACH ONE of the Knight guys either bought from me or asked me to locate an older Knight 1:20 - Gordy E. was the only one who had one and I told him they did not have a rifle in their inventory that could outshoot these older 1:20's with BP and proper 500gr+ bullets. This lead to the discussions on the birth of the K500. Anyway, on multiple occasions when Gordy and I get on the topic about smokeless powders or going over 120/84 BH209 loads he told me " Savage had 146 lawsuits filed against them from 2000-2006 and that's why you'll never see another maker take the liability risk". He went on and I could go on forever, but that's why they will never recommend overloading BH209 or Smokeless. Unfortunately, due to many issues, Gordy is no longer with Knight.
3) How many stories have we hear over the years about a Savage ML blowing up because it had to be double loaded? If it's alway double loading, then why don't we hear stories of guys blowing regular in-line ML up from double loading - it certainly can't be a coincidence that ONLY Savage shooters are double loading.
4) After the local Savage incident and talking to the guy who lost his hand. I've been reading and trying to understand what happens to make one blow up? Here is one of many internet instances. One in particular stands out Palatka vs Savage 10ml-II US District Court (2009 in MI, I believe) although I don't agree with one of the experts Dr. abc who testified, the other Dr. xyz is certainly in reason.
Here is a photo of one of the pages within the court documents, note the number of incidents.
To answer your question on why "it seems Savage has a reputation for blowing up".
I never owned an in-line until my good friend passed and his widow gave me his Encore (about 5 years ago)- I've made post about it here and wrote an article a few years ago that was just published this past February in MB. I have NO experience with SML.
Here it is"
1) over the 25-26 years I've been attending both NMLRA Matches each year, I can't recall hearing of a gun plowing up until the Smokeless came out (we didn't have the internet either) I do recall old timers talk about the Douglas barrels blowing up when they started using 12L14 as the material (this is screw stock material and they screwed-up!) I also recall the NMLRA position on the SML - Tom Schiffer (past president) and I are very close and talk / email often, he was a LRML shooter too. Since the 2000 you hear every now and then a story of either a Savage blowing up or someone trying to put smokeless in a non-smokeless ML - most all being in-lines.
2) During the 1st NMLRA In-line match in the spring of 2013, I met the guys from Knight - thought they were out of business. Then found they were 45 min from me. After the match, they approached me and bestill as we were 1st and 2nd or I should say 2nd & 1st. I don't know what they talked to him about, but they were intrigued by my shooting BP and PP bullets out of a std Encore 209x50 with a 4x scope and Jason D. outfit. The Knight guys and pro-staff did not fair well, they along with others who quit after 200 paper, not to shoot the silhouettes at all. The cold, windy day ended many shooters hopes. But, it became the start of many long discussions on LRML shooting - I was now teaching them. Over the following years EACH ONE of the Knight guys either bought from me or asked me to locate an older Knight 1:20 - Gordy E. was the only one who had one and I told him they did not have a rifle in their inventory that could outshoot these older 1:20's with BP and proper 500gr+ bullets. This lead to the discussions on the birth of the K500. Anyway, on multiple occasions when Gordy and I get on the topic about smokeless powders or going over 120/84 BH209 loads he told me " Savage had 146 lawsuits filed against them from 2000-2006 and that's why you'll never see another maker take the liability risk". He went on and I could go on forever, but that's why they will never recommend overloading BH209 or Smokeless. Unfortunately, due to many issues, Gordy is no longer with Knight.
3) How many stories have we hear over the years about a Savage ML blowing up because it had to be double loaded? If it's alway double loading, then why don't we hear stories of guys blowing regular in-line ML up from double loading - it certainly can't be a coincidence that ONLY Savage shooters are double loading.
4) After the local Savage incident and talking to the guy who lost his hand. I've been reading and trying to understand what happens to make one blow up? Here is one of many internet instances. One in particular stands out Palatka vs Savage 10ml-II US District Court (2009 in MI, I believe) although I don't agree with one of the experts Dr. abc who testified, the other Dr. xyz is certainly in reason.
Here is a photo of one of the pages within the court documents, note the number of incidents.
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GM:
To answer your question on why "it seems Savage has a reputation for blowing up".
I never owned an in-line until my good friend passed and his widow gave me his Encore (about 5 years ago)- I've made post about it here and wrote an article a few years ago that was just published this past February in MB. I have NO experience with SML.
Here it is"
1) over the 25-26 years I've been attending both NMLRA Matches each year, I can't recall hearing of a gun plowing up until the Smokeless came out (we didn't have the internet either) I do recall old timers talk about the Douglas barrels blowing up when they started using 12L14 as the material (this is screw stock material and they screwed-up!) I also recall the NMLRA position on the SML - Tom Schiffer (past president) and I are very close and talk / email often, he was a LRML shooter too. Since the 2000 you hear every now and then a story of either a Savage blowing up or someone trying to put smokeless in a non-smokeless ML - most all being in-lines.
2) During the 1st NMLRA In-line match in the spring of 2013, I met the guys from Knight - thought they were out of business. Then found they were 45 min from me. After the match, they approached me and bestill as we were 1st and 2nd or I should say 2nd & 1st. I don't know what they talked to him about, but they were intrigued by my shooting BP and PP bullets out of a std Encore 209x50 with a 4x scope and Jason D. outfit. The Knight guys and pro-staff did not fair well, they along with others who quit after 200 paper, not to shoot the silhouettes at all. The cold, windy day ended many shooters hopes. But, it became the start of many long discussions on LRML shooting - I was now teaching them. Over the following years EACH ONE of the Knight guys either bought from me or asked me to locate an older Knight 1:20 - Gordy E. was the only one who had one and I told him they did not have a rifle in their inventory that could outshoot these older 1:20's with BP and proper 500gr+ bullets. This lead to the discussions on the birth of the K500. Anyway, on multiple occasions when Gordy and I get on the topic about smokeless powders or going over 120/84 BH209 loads he told me " Savage had 146 lawsuits filed against them from 2000-2006 and that's why you'll never see another maker take the liability risk". He went on and I could go on forever, but that's why they will never recommend overloading BH209 or Smokeless. Unfortunately, due to many issues, Gordy is no longer with Knight.
3) How many stories have we hear over the years about a Savage ML blowing up because it had to be double loaded? If it's alway double loading, then why don't we hear stories of guys blowing regular in-line ML up from double loading - it certainly can't be a coincidence that ONLY Savage shooters are double loading.
4) After the local Savage incident and talking to the guy who lost his hand. I've been reading and trying to understand what happens to make one blow up? Here is one of many internet instances. One in particular stands out Palatka vs Savage 10ml-II US District Court (2009 in MI, I believe) although I don't agree with one of the experts Dr. abc who testified, the other Dr. xyz is certainly in reason.
Here is a photo of one of the pages within the court documents, note the number of incidents.
To answer your question on why "it seems Savage has a reputation for blowing up".
I never owned an in-line until my good friend passed and his widow gave me his Encore (about 5 years ago)- I've made post about it here and wrote an article a few years ago that was just published this past February in MB. I have NO experience with SML.
Here it is"
1) over the 25-26 years I've been attending both NMLRA Matches each year, I can't recall hearing of a gun plowing up until the Smokeless came out (we didn't have the internet either) I do recall old timers talk about the Douglas barrels blowing up when they started using 12L14 as the material (this is screw stock material and they screwed-up!) I also recall the NMLRA position on the SML - Tom Schiffer (past president) and I are very close and talk / email often, he was a LRML shooter too. Since the 2000 you hear every now and then a story of either a Savage blowing up or someone trying to put smokeless in a non-smokeless ML - most all being in-lines.
2) During the 1st NMLRA In-line match in the spring of 2013, I met the guys from Knight - thought they were out of business. Then found they were 45 min from me. After the match, they approached me and bestill as we were 1st and 2nd or I should say 2nd & 1st. I don't know what they talked to him about, but they were intrigued by my shooting BP and PP bullets out of a std Encore 209x50 with a 4x scope and Jason D. outfit. The Knight guys and pro-staff did not fair well, they along with others who quit after 200 paper, not to shoot the silhouettes at all. The cold, windy day ended many shooters hopes. But, it became the start of many long discussions on LRML shooting - I was now teaching them. Over the following years EACH ONE of the Knight guys either bought from me or asked me to locate an older Knight 1:20 - Gordy E. was the only one who had one and I told him they did not have a rifle in their inventory that could outshoot these older 1:20's with BP and proper 500gr+ bullets. This lead to the discussions on the birth of the K500. Anyway, on multiple occasions when Gordy and I get on the topic about smokeless powders or going over 120/84 BH209 loads he told me " Savage had 146 lawsuits filed against them from 2000-2006 and that's why you'll never see another maker take the liability risk". He went on and I could go on forever, but that's why they will never recommend overloading BH209 or Smokeless. Unfortunately, due to many issues, Gordy is no longer with Knight.
3) How many stories have we hear over the years about a Savage ML blowing up because it had to be double loaded? If it's alway double loading, then why don't we hear stories of guys blowing regular in-line ML up from double loading - it certainly can't be a coincidence that ONLY Savage shooters are double loading.
4) After the local Savage incident and talking to the guy who lost his hand. I've been reading and trying to understand what happens to make one blow up? Here is one of many internet instances. One in particular stands out Palatka vs Savage 10ml-II US District Court (2009 in MI, I believe) although I don't agree with one of the experts Dr. abc who testified, the other Dr. xyz is certainly in reason.
Here is a photo of one of the pages within the court documents, note the number of incidents.
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It appears MLs can blow up with APP powder too.
[youtube]GCe2B2pN3pQ[/youtube]
Like i said, if you want the facts about a Savage MLII, call Bill Ball aka 1shot1kill. Considering your level of interest im very surprised you have not. There probably is not another person alive that knows more about them and the history of the MLII. He should, he is a co-inventor.
[youtube]GCe2B2pN3pQ[/youtube]
Like i said, if you want the facts about a Savage MLII, call Bill Ball aka 1shot1kill. Considering your level of interest im very surprised you have not. There probably is not another person alive that knows more about them and the history of the MLII. He should, he is a co-inventor.
:huh?:
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bestill said:cljohnson24,
Some post are better kept to yourself.
You are correct, I responded rashly before thinking and it was pretty insensitive of me.
However I honestly don't believe the barrel blew up without a double load let alone NO BULLET at all..
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Thank you CJ.
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GM: Unfortunately I've never heard of Bill Ball or APP, I see you said he was a co-inventer so yes I would like to talk to him - thanks. Apparently I'll have to read some more to learn...
cljohnson24: you should read before you post. The guy who lost his hand admitted to me he was at fault by pouring in unknown about of powder out of can and had no intentions of suing.
No one is blaming the gun itself, the guy and I want to know how this can occur (probably not with no bullet).
From what I've learned it seems there is a number of folks who have had the same 'ignition issues' with smokeless based powder as this guy son. This is really what I'm so baffled about. Check out the In-line section BH209 Bullet Move and it will catch you up.
Your input is certainly welcome especially if you've experienced some abnormality with shooting smokeless.
Thanks
cljohnson24: you should read before you post. The guy who lost his hand admitted to me he was at fault by pouring in unknown about of powder out of can and had no intentions of suing.
No one is blaming the gun itself, the guy and I want to know how this can occur (probably not with no bullet).
From what I've learned it seems there is a number of folks who have had the same 'ignition issues' with smokeless based powder as this guy son. This is really what I'm so baffled about. Check out the In-line section BH209 Bullet Move and it will catch you up.
Your input is certainly welcome especially if you've experienced some abnormality with shooting smokeless.
Thanks
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Smokeless powder takes backpressure or other terms snuggle bullet fit to burn properly.
Example in a cartridge gun the distance you seat bullet off the throat of rifling will greatly effect chamber pressure..
In a Muzzleloader with land riding projectile or sabot you need resistance to get smokeless powder to burn properly. As primer sends fire into powder charge it starts burning releasing gas building pressure and with proper bullet backpressure powder burns at optimum rate.
If bullet is the loose primer bumps bullet and powder starts burning but no resistance so as gas is released it pushes bullet out but never enuf pressure to get powder performance..
Search
Ignition guidelines blackhorn powder
Line 5
Blackhorn web site
Remember smokeless burns and blackpowder explodes
Example in a cartridge gun the distance you seat bullet off the throat of rifling will greatly effect chamber pressure..
In a Muzzleloader with land riding projectile or sabot you need resistance to get smokeless powder to burn properly. As primer sends fire into powder charge it starts burning releasing gas building pressure and with proper bullet backpressure powder burns at optimum rate.
If bullet is the loose primer bumps bullet and powder starts burning but no resistance so as gas is released it pushes bullet out but never enuf pressure to get powder performance..
Search
Ignition guidelines blackhorn powder
Line 5
Blackhorn web site
Remember smokeless burns and blackpowder explodes
