Should I wait or Not?

[cayuga]

Without question.. if the law states no smokeless powder then that's the law. Whether we agree with it or not. There are so many other muzzleloaders out there that will shoot black powder and substitutes so well and with such accuracy, it boils down to be legal.

If we start stepping around one small aspect of a law, pretty soon running over other aspects of the law might not seem all that bad anymore.

 

[nyrackaddict]

All I can say is,

You should follow the laws,

You get caught with smokeless in the pretty rifle , You not going to have for long.

You'll also may get a big fine and lose you vehicle at the same time.

As Hunter Safety Instructor,
We have been asked many of time in class about this.

The word from NYS DEC is if it looks anything like a Savage in-line,
it will checked and if found to loaded with smokeless,, You nailed !!!!!!

Actually it's New Jersey that does not allow smokeless powder in MLs. Smokeless powder is perfectly legal to use in a Savage10ml in New York state according to my 07'-08' regs.(or so I thought) I just read it cover to cover and found nothing stating smokeless is prohibited. This is the 1st Ive heard of this, but I see you are a HSC instuctor and now I am concerned, are you mistaken or am I ???????? :?

 

[funman]

its weird here in flordia , in our state regulations hand book it dosent say anything about not using smokeless powder in a muzzle loader so me and a friend of mine were going to buy a savage. He went to the gun store and they told him it was illegal to use in flordia. so i did some research on line and saw where it said you cannot use a nitro cellou something sorry dont remember the make up of smokeless powder but you know what im talking about. such a huge dissappointment for me. My buddy down the street is still convince you can use it but he hasnt read what i read on line with the florida game and wildlife. If anyone finds something different please let me know since im about to buy a new muzzle loader. i guess i could still buy one and use it during general gun and when muzzle loading season pops up im back with the ole cva (i was trying to stay away from the cva)

 

[gamegetter]

I can asure you, I'm not wrong,,
Here in NYS, we are updated every year on the changes for teaching the class's.
And every year were asked the same question on using them for Muzzle Loading season..

What page in the regulation dose it say , You can use smokeless powder in your ML??
Were in the Regulation did you find it, that it's legal??
If I'm wrong please point me to the page to correct me..

It dose not say anything about using smokeless powder in ML's..
Because they don't classify the new guns as a Muzzle loader if it using smokeless powder..


Just as using Double barrel rifles are not legal to use during the ML season in NY..
Smokeless rifles are defined the same.
They just have not put it in print yet..

So many changes in the firearms industry and most DEC's or Fish and Game Departments can't keep up with them in there game laws.


You can use it during the regular gun season..
But until they classify Smokeless powder as Black Powder, your not allowed to use it during the the Muzzle Loader seasons.

funman, and anybody else buying one of those Smokeless ML's ,
Call your Fish and Game Dept and find out if they are legal to use.

Because the state regulation book don't say anything, Don't go by anybodies word..
You will lost a lot if your wrong!!!!

 

[Redclub]

The law is the law even if we don't agree with it. Its still the law.
I go to Co. and I can't use scopes ,pellets or sabots and at my age I can't see real well but we make do and appreciate the chance to hunt and obey their laws. Who wants to sit around to see if a warden will come, that would be lots of fun.
Redclub

 

[nyrackaddict]

Theres a big difference between not allowing smokeless powder during the ML season which is only 10 days long and prohibiting it all together. NJ clearly states that smokeless powder is prohibited in MLs at all times. That scared me for a moment there, but also confused me ,I was actually turned on the the 10 ml by a couple range officers at my club who are pretty "straight & narrow" , "by the book" kind of guys and I know they use theirs during the NY ML season, I think theyd be pretty shocked to learn theyre actually breaking the law, although I dont know how NY could expect to impose a law that is clearly not stated anywhere in the regs.

Personally I use my muzzleloader/bow season tags during the early bow season and do not usually hunt deer during NY ML season. I only use it as an alternative to a slug gun during the reg season in rifle restricted areas.

Still a shame about NJ though. It be nice if states would focus more on deer population managent and less on prohibiting advancements in gun technology.

 

[funman]

Pretty sure i wont be using a smokless muzzle loader in muzzle loading season but im also pretty sure they wont take your truck and gun if they caught you out thier with one. Not for a first offence anyway. Thier are going to be folks out thier that dont know any better, and until they get it in the hanbooks and better inform people that is whats going to happen. Im not for breaking the law intentually but thier isnt a one of you that hasnt broken a law in the last year remember a law is a law. This is just my opinion but i dont see a great advantage to the hunter using smokless powder a little more yardage.

 

[nyrackaddict]

I can asure you, I'm not wrong,,
Here in NYS, we are updated every year on the changes for teaching the class's.
And every year were asked the same question on using them for Muzzle Loading season..

What page in the regulation dose it say , You can use smokeless powder in your ML??
Were in the Regulation did you find it, that it's legal??
If I'm wrong please point me to the page to correct me..

It dose not say anything about using smokeless powder in ML's..
Because they don't classify the new guns as a Muzzle loader if it using smokeless powder..


!!

NYS hunting & trapping guide states that the definition of a muzzleloader is "a firearm loaded through the muzzle,w/ a min. bore of .44..." right there I would imagine that classifies the savage 10ml as muzzleloader.

W/ all due respect Im not sure I understand your point about everything haveing to be specifically stated that it is legal to actually be legal. It does not mention climbing treestands, 16X scopes or rangfingers are legal either but they of course are. Seems to me if somthing is not specifically mentioned as prohibited, it should be legal, not the other way around.

 

[Hammerspur]

New York Muzzleloading

"Muzzleloading Firearm"-is a firearm loaded through the muzzle, shooting a single projectile and having a minimum bore of .44 inch."

http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/28182.html

Tried searching the site for over half an hour... could NOT find any more restrictive definition than the one stated.

 

[gamegetter]

I know that DEC have been debating the use of them,
But, All I can say is, for last 3 years, they have been stating that is was not allowed to be used during ML season yet...

As of today, I have not received anything saying it has been changed.
We as Instructors have not been given any update on the use of them being legal, so the students will get the same answer until we get notified of a change.

I have left 2 messages with the DEC law Department, awaiting a answer if it has been changed this year.

As soon as I get a update I will post the any changes.

Being it's not printed on the book, don't mean it is allowed or not...

The book is a guide and if there is any questions, there is a DEC number to call to verify and questions that may be needed to know..
Ignorance is no excuse in the law..

Gun Store owner don't care, they are only looking for a sale..

As you know, It's the CO decisions to give a warning or a ticket.

If your lucky, you get a old timer and he will warn you.
If not , you get a new kid that will ticket you with out any warning.

Is it worth paying a fine, because you were told by someone and did not check and verify it yourself..

 

[Hammerspur]

I know that DEC have been debating the use of them,

Based on what law...WHERE?

But, All I can say is, for last 3 years, they have been stating that is was not allowed to be used during ML season yet...

But who is this "THEY"?

Is it worth paying a fine, because you were told by someone and did not check and verify it yourself..

Check with who?
Verifying by written regulation or the word of some hammerhead warden merely going by word of mouth or other inaccurate source as in:
http://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/phpBB ... ght=#66491

Before I went out with a SM I'd print out a copy of the web-page displaying the "Muzzleloading Firearm" definition and pack it along with the rest of my documentation. :idea:

 

[nyrackaddict]

Being it's not printed on the book, don't mean it is allowed or not...

The book is a guide and if there is any questions, there is a DEC number to call to verify and questions that may be needed to know..
Ignorance is no excuse in the law..

Again not questioning your credentials as a instructor,but I just dont see how the DEC can enforce or impose a law that has not been publically posted or published anywhere.

Like I said before, there are hundreds of devices,tools, accessories& components (peep sights,reddots,polymer tippeted bullets, trail cams etc.....all legal as far as I know)that deer hunters have available for their deer hunting weapons and tactics, that are not specifically described or prohibitted in the published NY regs, which IS ,in my eyes, the holy grail, hunters should use to determine whats legal ,its not a loose set of guidelines that are open to interpritation by GWs. How else would we know whats legal & not?
I understand if you are not sure of somthing you shoud ask before doing it, but I really dont see whats in question here, if its not publically published anywhere that it is prohibitted, then as far as Im concerned, its not. Are you suggesting I call the DEC and ask permission to use every peice of deer hunting equipment I own that is not specifically mentioned? :?

 

[gamegetter]

There are many new thing coming on the market that help you fill you tag.

But in some states like NY , they choose not too allowed them ..

Wither it's equipment , food, minerals mixes and other toys.

NY state DEC is very slow sometimes in determining if it would be legal or not to use for hunting..

I'm Not going to tell you what you can and can not use to take you game.

What I saying is that, if you use some new type a gadget to take deer, You should find if it's OK to use and not find out later when you get a warning or fine because it was not printed in the first book of the year.

Sometime the second and third edition have the changes and the first ones out don't have the changes due to the time it was printed..

I'm not going to debate something that might of been changed and we Instructors have not been notified yet.

Like I said, I called DEC Law department and waiting for a return call.
For all I know, I'm wrong and they made the changes to use them now.

My only point is to not let some get penalized because they hear it from a friend and they heard from a friend, then they get in trouble and say it's the governments fault for not telling us..

And what is the worse or the sad thing to hear is,
Don't worry and do it. They will not catch you.

By the way,,

Here is the rule for Muzzle Loader::

"Muzzleloading Firearm"-is a firearm loaded through the muzzle, shooting a single projectile and having a minimum bore of .44 inch."

Now the fun,
A Sabot is not a single projectile !!!
It's 2 hard pieces coming out of the barrel.

Just a point , That It's not been changed yet in the book.
If the CO wanted to bust chops, they have a reason..


.

 

[nyrackaddict]

I hear ya, one would be fool to take someones word on wether somthing was made legal or not. For example, about 4 or 5 years ago the NYDEC made it legal to use scopes on MLs during ML season but didnt update the regs book that season it went into effect. My friend told me it was now legal but I still called and checked. The difference is, in reguards to smokeless powder being legal in MLs is, it has never, to my knowledge, been specifically prohibited in any NY regs like the scope restriction clearly was for all those years.

All I'm saying is, I think the responsibility falls on the DEC to make its restrictions public knowledge, not for hunters to personally inquire wether every piece of their equipment is legal if it hasnt been specifically stated otherwise.
I think NY/NJ is going to have to adress this issue more closley in the next few years, as smokeless MLs becomes more popular. Till then I will hold off on buying another conventional ML...or will I? :wink:

 

[Hammerspur]

"Muzzleloading Firearm"-is a firearm loaded through the muzzle, shooting a single projectile and having a minimum bore of .44 inch."
A Sabot is not a single projectile !!!
It's 2 hard pieces coming out of the barrel.

:wink: VERY good point !
Seems like a case of the right hand not knowing what the left is doing.

(In politics?... NAH, coudn't be!) :lol:

 

[nyrackaddict]

Hmm what about a PRB? :lol:

 

[gamegetter]

I remember that scope feasco....
We were telling students that they were not allowed to use a scope and the DEC did not give us the updates.

After finding out, we Instructors felt the egg on our faces..

But then again thats a norm with the state..

Thats why I said, I would not comment any further till I get a cal back from DEC..

I must agree, they are getting popular..


As for PRB,,

A patch ball was never considered as a 2 piece projectile..
A patch can not penetrate the skin, It may burn you, but will not penetrate it..

Projectile-- noun: a weapon that is thrown or projected

 

[cnymuzguy]

I beg to differ, but the 10ml is classified as a muzzleloader in New York. It requires no special form to be filled out to purchase. It follows all descriptions of a muzzleloading rifle in the DEC regulations. The regulations make no special inclusions or exclusions as to powder type.

You might want to inform several of the ECO's in my area that they are allowing the law to be violated, because they have seen it in the field and never said a word.

 

[cnymuzguy]

"Muzzleloading Firearm"-is a firearm loaded through the muzzle, shooting a single projectile and having a minimum bore of .44 inch."
A Sabot is not a single projectile !!!
It's 2 hard pieces coming out of the barrel.

Wink VERY good point !
Seems like a case of the right hand not knowing what the left is doing.

Darn, I can't used a patched ball then can I??? Every patched ball I've shot had the patch land several feet from the muzzle. I guess a patch could be considered a "projectile" too.

 

[gamegetter]

Darn, I can't used a patched ball then can I??? Every patched ball I've shot had the patch land several feet from the muzzle. I guess a patch could be considered a "projectile" too.

I guesss you did not read the answer I put on RB's..

Before you make a comment, you should read all of the postings.....



As for PRB,,

A patch ball was never considered as a 2 piece projectile..
A patch can not penetrate the skin, It may burn you, but will not penetrate it..

Projectile-- noun: a weapon that is thrown or projected


A Patch is not a weapon....


..