Smokeless for a beginner... good idea ??

[geraldbergeron]

Hi everybody,

I am new to muzzleloading since a few weeks, when I bought a SM10-II.

I knew nothing about muzzleloading: Savage or black powder or any powder; I was an archer, crossbower, rifle-hunter.

At the beginning of November, I had an occasion to go to a muzzleloader deer hunt, for one week. So I began to ... and was told the best was a Savage SM10-II...

What a "shock"... IMO, quite a lot to learn for a beginner.

Happily, I found Smoleless forums and good "mentor". Or I would have sold my SM10-II.

But, what a job...

So... do you think Smokeless is a good way to begin in "smoke"...?

I am still wondering....

How were your "beginnings" ... ? ? ?

........................................................................Gerald.............../

 

[Tar-12]

Beginners

Gerald, I believe most people view smokeless muzzleloading with some trepidation at first,if you proceed slowly, follow directions, you will have no trouble!Once you become familiar with the routine, it will become old hat to you! Let nothing distract you, and you have no concerns!

 

[Doohan]

Hi Gerald,

Tough question...

I would say the 10ML is fine..( if I remember correctly, I recommended the 10ML to you over at HA - and this site ) No matter what gun you chose, you would have had virtually the same learning curve.. Muzzleloading by nature is not a simple venture.. It is complex, tricky and takes time to perfect.

That challenge is what makes muzzleloading such a sport and passion. A centerfire is MUCH easier hunting tool to tame and shoot consistantly.

The 10ml, a set of lee dippers, a pound of 5744, a bag of MMP short sabots, and box 250 XTP's would be a great place to start..

In relation to any BP gun, you have many things in common:

* You are measuring volumetrically ( with lee dippers and 5744 )
* Your bullet/sabot combo are the same
* Both load from the barrel
* Most likely a 209 primer is involved

What you DON'T have with smokeless is:
* Swabbing that takes time and practice to produce GREAT groups ( at least for me it does)
* Immediate cleanup because of corrosive propellants.. IE: PYRODEX
* Crud Rings
* Stinky Smoke
* Stuck Breech Plugs?

So you see, smokeless IMO is a bit of a shortcut. You get to skip some of the tedious aspects associated with the BP propellants and jump right into SHOOTING! Not guncare and post shot rituals. You should try a black powder substitute in that 10ML and see if things get more complex or less..

From reading your post:

I knew nothing about muzzleloading: Savage or black powder or any powder

At the beginning of November, I had an occasion to go to a muzzleloader deer hunt, for one week

Is it fair to say you had a hunting opportunity that required a muzzleloader. You researched the options and settled on a Savage. With maybe weeks before the hunt you had limited time to come to terms with your new Savage and Muzzleloading in general??

Happily, I found Smoleless forums and good "mentor". Or I would have sold my SM10-II.

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater! How long did it take you to become proficient with a bow?

How were your "beginnings" ... ? ? ?

I started out with a .45 CVA Hunterbolt. For the life of me, I couldnt get that gun to shoot PERIOD! I was tired of getting beat by that gun so I settled in at HA and learned about muzzleloading.. Since then, I have bought and sold quite a few muzzleloaders.. mostly just to see what was out there and to get experience with a variety of products.

Currently I have 7 muzzleloaders on hand.. My favorites are my Savages and WHITE Super 91's ..

Welcome to Muzzleloading Gerald. I hope you don't give up on that Savage.. it is a fine gun!

 

[Rifleman]

Thats a really good post JJ, bout time. :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

So... do you think Smokeless is a good way to begin in "smoke"...?

It is a very good way to get into muzzleloading, and many "beginners" have an easier time than "experienced" muzzleloaders with smokeless. The basis is that you have no old habits to unlearn, you don't have to deprogram yourself from muzzleloading mythology.

The companies that sell "bore butter" tell you to season your barrel with it-- but modern steels cannot be "seasoned" like cast iron. With other muzzleloaders, worrying about spit-patching and swabbing can be confusing. You do not need (or want) to swab between shots with the 10ML-II.

A wide variety of "Black Powder Solvents" are on the market. Yet, most inline hunters today never use true blackpowder-- it is Triple 7, Pyrodex, etc. But, "blackpowder cleaners" are still used though blackpowder is not.

That can, and should be forgotten with smokeless muzzleloading. All blackpowder subs are water soluble-- and that is a big factor in corrosion. Smokeless propellants are NOT water soluble, and water is never introduced into the bore of a 10ML-II as a cleaner-- nor is it in a normal shotgun, rimfire, or centerfire; all of which naturally use smokeless powder, and have long before Pyrodex, Triple 7, etc., etc., ever existed.

Triple 7 is often used with a sloppy volumetric "black powder measure." It works, of course, but weighing Triple 7 gives more consistent velocities. Accurate Arms 5744 works well using Lee Smokeless powder dippers-- yet, weighing is better just like it is for Triple 7.

All the immediate cleaning, mess, and ritual involved with Pyrodex and Triple 7 is gone. But, there is one thing you do need to do with a 10ML-II after a box of 100 primers for best performance-- clean your breechplug.

Henry and Bill Ball have introduced thousands of folks to smokeless muzzleloading over the last 16 years. Henry has always found the "learning curve" to be far shorter with a non-muzzleloader than, say, a round ball enthusiast. It isn't hard to see why. :wink:

 

[Mountain Man]

My first frontstuffer was the Savage 10ML-II that I purchased this summer. It's taken 3 deer already this fall, and there's still five weeks of season to go!

I had shot muzzleloaders a couple of times before, and I have read a lot about it, even a complete book on building flintlocks from scratch without any modern (20th century) tools, like the frontier gunsmith would have done. More importantly, I had been reading Doug's Savage ML board, RW's site, and the SavageShooters site for about a year and a half prior to getting the 10ML, so I knew what I was getting into.

Hope you enjoy it as much as I have!

 

[Anonymous]

Thats a really good post JJ

It is and was-- JJ's been hiding his light for too long? :arrow: :drinkers:

 

[dwhunter]

I very much agree with Randy on this one. Smokeless muzzleloading is not harder at all just different. Sometimes it's much better to start out fresh not knowing anything without all the bad habits. Once a person learns the ropes smokeless is much easier than bp muzzleloading.

 

[elkstalkr]

agee, smokeless is no harder to learn the smokefull Ml'ing, just different.

i think it would be great for a beginner.

 

[RAF]

I was relativey new to muzzleloading when I bought my savage, so hadn't developed too many habits except for the tedious job of cleaning. I got so tired of cleaning that in-line every time I came home, it was one of primary reasons I bought the Savage and now just love it. If you keep it simple it works. Mine is a hunting tool and don't have much desire to do a bunch of testing and experimenting. As a hunting tool it works great. 1st season, on deer. This year 4. What more can I say.

 

[Grouse]

If you keep it simple it works. Mine is a hunting tool and don't have much desire to do a bunch of testing and experimenting. As a hunting tool it works great. 1st season, on deer. This year 4. What more can I say.

That's exactly what Henry Ball designed it for. SAFE CLEAN AND SIMPLE. He told me this himself. :wink:

 

[geraldbergeron]

Hi everybody,

I am quite glad for the all the posts that I received from you and I thank you all for that attention.

I hope that first time SM10-LL buyers should know your forums BEFORE getting in trouble.

I was not aware that there is such a ? learning process ? with the SM10-II (just like archery) : it is not just ? LOAD AND FIRE ? !!! like I was said.

But I am more and more happy to have bought SM10-II.

Thank you all again for your support.

??????????????.Gerald????.still learning from you????????/

 

[MCee67]

You will love your MLII. This board is most definatly a bonus! I actually look froward to reading it every night. You never know who you can help, and never know what you might learn. Best part of all, you make new friends!! :yeah:

 

[geraldbergeron]

You will love your MLII. This board is most definatly a bonus! I actually look froward to reading it every night. You never know who you can help, and never know what you might learn. Best part of all, you make new friends!! :yeah:

Hi

Well said ; there are many great gentlemen on this forum.

.................................................................Gerald..................

 

[Doohan]

Thats a really good post JJ, bout time. :lol:

Lol.. thanks guys! :mrgreen:

 

[Blue-Dot-37.5]

My Savage was my first muzzleloader, and I purchased it specifically because I knew that I wouldn't have to go thru the tedious cleaning process if I shot modern smokeless powder. As for the learning curve, I really don't think it's any worse than any other gun (if you handload the centerfire guns). Realistically, you are handloading any ML, smokeless or not.

I play with mine because I'm a tinkerer at heart. When I got mine, I read a lot before I started, and followed a lot of advice that I read. I was able to get it sighted in and shooting a 1 1/2" group after 6 shots. Can't get much easier than that!

250 gr. SST, MMP short sabot, 43 gr. IMR 4759, CCi 209M primer is what I started with. The adittion of a wonder wad under the sabot really helps reduce the loading effort for the next shot. After the first hunting season, I played with the load a bit, and settled on 44 grains of powder. < 1/2 moa group @ 100 Yds.

Blue-Dot-37.5

 

[geraldbergeron]

Hi Gerald,

Tough question...

I would say the 10ML is fine..( if I remember correctly, I recommended the 10ML to you over at HA - and this site ) No matter what gun you chose, you would have had virtually the same learning curve.. Muzzleloading by nature is not a simple venture.. It is complex, tricky and takes time to perfect.

That challenge is what makes muzzleloading such a sport and passion. A centerfire is MUCH easier hunting tool to tame and shoot consistantly.

The 10ml, a set of lee dippers, a pound of 5744, a bag of MMP short sabots, and box 250 XTP's would be a great place to start..

In relation to any BP gun, you have many things in common:

* You are measuring volumetrically ( with lee dippers and 5744 )
* Your bullet/sabot combo are the same
* Both load from the barrel
* Most likely a 209 primer is involved

What you DON'T have with smokeless is:
* Swabbing that takes time and practice to produce GREAT groups ( at least for me it does)
* Immediate cleanup because of corrosive propellants.. IE: PYRODEX
* Crud Rings
* Stinky Smoke
* Stuck Breech Plugs?

So you see, smokeless IMO is a bit of a shortcut. You get to skip some of the tedious aspects associated with the BP propellants and jump right into SHOOTING! Not guncare and post shot rituals. You should try a black powder substitute in that 10ML and see if things get more complex or less..

From reading your post:

I knew nothing about muzzleloading: Savage or black powder or any powder

At the beginning of November, I had an occasion to go to a muzzleloader deer hunt, for one week

Is it fair to say you had a hunting opportunity that required a muzzleloader. You researched the options and settled on a Savage. With maybe weeks before the hunt you had limited time to come to terms with your new Savage and Muzzleloading in general??

Happily, I found Smoleless forums and good "mentor". Or I would have sold my SM10-II.

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater! How long did it take you to become proficient with a bow?

How were your "beginnings" ... ? ? ?

I started out with a .45 CVA Hunterbolt. For the life of me, I couldnt get that gun to shoot PERIOD! I was tired of getting beat by that gun so I settled in at HA and learned about muzzleloading.. Since then, I have bought and sold quite a few muzzleloaders.. mostly just to see what was out there and to get experience with a variety of products.

Currently I have 7 muzzleloaders on hand.. My favorites are my Savages and WHITE Super 91's ..

Welcome to Muzzleloading Gerald. I hope you don't give up on that Savage.. it is a fine gun!

Hi Doohan,

You are quite a "mentor"...

Glad to meet you.

............Gerald...................still with his SM10-II........................../