Stuck Saboted Bullets in Pedersoli Hawken Hunter (Percussion)

[BlackPowderGuy (AJHS)]

Hi all,

So, I‘ve had an inline muzzleloader for a couple of years and want to try something a little different. I do not want to hunt with lead for health reasons so I’ve been looking at the Pedersoli Hawken Hunter, which has a twist rate fast enough to fire saboted bullets, which means I can use the Barnes all copper bullets in it.
Here’s my question: With muzzleloading, sometimes ignition fails. With a lead ball, I understand that you can use a ball puller. With a saboted all copper round, that just won’t work.

On the Pedersoli webpage, the manual (not specifically for the Hawken Hunter model) implies that the breech plug can be removed in such an event by just putting the barrel in a vise and using a wrench. If so, then I get that you remove breech plug and push bullet out the breech end, just like in an inline. Anyone have any experience with this? Thanks!

 

[retrieverman]

I had this happen to me last year. I fired a couple or three more primers through it, and the bullet and sabot popped out.

 

[bstorric]

If the ignition fails to fire. I keep a small container of loose powder with me (preferably real Black powder) and pull off the nipple and put some under the nipple, directly into the snail. Then put the nipple back on and fire like normal. This works most of the time. If for some reason this isnt working, I would try everything I can try before removing the breech. @idahoron posted a video using grease to push the bullet out. While this is a little messy, he shows how it can be done with relatively little mess and the risk of damage to the rifle is nearly zero. While removing the breech is possible, it really should be done with the correct tools, ie breech removal tool.

 

[bstorric]

https://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/threads/stuck-bullet.39274/This is the link to the post I am referencing

 

[BlackPowderGuy (AJHS)]

Thanks Folks.
Here is the quote from the manual, what do you make of it: “
HOW TO REMOVE THE BREECH PLUG FROM BARREL
 Percussion rifles or pistols with drum: remove the nipple and the drum. Before removing the drum, mark a small position line for the drum and the barrel, such to mount it in the same position. When reassembling the drum and the nipple do not apply an excessive strength, or you may break the parts. Make sure that the male thread perfectly matches with the one of the hole.
Percussion rifles or pistols without drum: remove the nipple. Flintlock rifles or pistols: remove the vent.
 For all firearms indicated at point 1e: before proceding to the removing of breech plug, make sure to have done a “reference mark” between barrel and breech plug, for the right position.
 With the barrel held in a bench vice (protected grip), unscrew the breech plug, by using an appropriate wrench”

 

[bstorric]

the "appropriate wrench" is a specialty wrench for breeches. People have done it with other normal hand tools, so it can be done. I also cant imagine the breech is designed to be disassembled and reassembled over and over again. I know from my professional background (heavy industry maintenance) that threaded connections experience stretch each time they are joined together, and this is especially true the higher the torque value. So if you took them apart and put them back together numerous times, you would inevitably loose some of your connection strength given by the "stretching" of your threaded connection. But do as you see fit. It ultimately is your gun to do with what you want. I am far from an expert on the matter but I know based off other similar discussions on this forum, that the general consensus is, do not remove your breech from a sidelock/flintlock if you can help it.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

what he said.
I would try everything else before trying to pull the breech plug off'n that nice gun. The powder under the nipple is the easiest first thing to try.

 

[BlackPowderGuy (AJHS)]

To be clear, I do not even own the gun yet! I am thinking of getting it, but was worried about the stuck bullet thing. I am pretty conservative, so my guess is that if I bought it and the weather looked very wet I’d probably skip the hunt, or maybe wrap the lock in plastic bag or something to reduce the odds of this situation even coming up. I was just asking “what if I did”…I did watch the video on the grease gun. That seemed easy enough. Does anybody sell an adapter to attach to an air compressor for this purpose?

 

[BlackPowderGuy (AJHS)]

Following up: That is the reason that I was also thinking of the PA Pellet…it has a removable breech plug…but I hear the ignition is really touchy on a flintlock…so the trade off seems to be more reliable ignition with the side lock but no removable breech plug so IF something goes wrong with a jacketed or all copper bullet, things could get more complicated.

 

[deermanok]

I've had many a misfire over the years. I've always unscrewed the nipple, fill the drum with powder, reinstall nipple, cap and fire. Sometimes I've had to do it a few times but in the end, the stuck bullet or ball always came out.

 

[BlackPowderGuy (AJHS)]

I've had many a misfire over the years. I've always unscrewed the nipple, fill the drum with powder, reinstall nipple, cap and fire. Sometimes I've had to do it a few times but in the end, the stuck bullet or ball always came out.

That’s encouraging

 

[Frank in Fairfield]

I tried shooting .50 Barnes bullets in a sabot with my .54 TC Renegade. Wouldn’t load very easily. Tried two .015 patches with just the .50 bullet. Nope. The bullet with patches became stuck in the barrel. A regular worm would not get enough purchase on the hollow-point Barnes bullet. Broke out the KADOOTY…It comes with two different size worms. Put the barrel in a padded vise and screwed in the worm. The KADOOTY took the bullet out with just one attempt…

 

[cam]

I used an air compressor and compressed air to blow it out into a cardboard box

 

[BlackPowderGuy (AJHS)]

I used an air compressor and compressed air to blow it out into a cardboard box

Is there a special adapter or something you put on the compressor that fits the nipple?

 

[cam]

the nozzle had a pointed rubber tip with a hole in it, for blowing off dirt and things. nothing special.

 

[idahoron]

I was just asking “what if I did”…I did watch the video on the grease gun. That seemed easy enough.

I'm glad you watched the video.
One thing to remember. If you use a ball puller and you put a hole in the bullet then the grease gun method is not going to work. A few grains in the nipple usually works. I have done that a few times. The grease gun method is more for when you get home and you need to get it out without damaging the gun. I have seen guys recommend heating the barrel hot enough to melt the lead bullets. That is dumb. That is why I made the video. Its not messy, and it only takes a few minutes.

 

[Renegadehunter]

I'll start by saying some simple hygiene is all that's required to handle and use lead safely. I'll never understand health concerns with handling lead, it's so easy to keep from incidentally ingesting it. But to each their own.

A fail to fire is no big deal really, unless you make it one by doing the wrong thing(s) after it happens.
I've had the same experience as deermanok, pulling the nipple and trickling a bit of powder in and then replacing the nipple and firing a cap has ignited the main charge for me 100% of the time so far, it has yet to fail for me. It also works very well if you happen to forget to put the powder in before loading the projectile (they say there's two types of muzzleloaders: those that have dry balled and those that are gonna ). If several attempts of putting powder under the nipple didn't do the job, then I'd go straight to the grease gun method with any projectile other than a PRB. I have a lot of confidence in pulling a ball with a ball puller, I do it quite often after hunting if the weather was wet. Saves me from having to do a full cleaning like shooting it out causes.

An even better deterrent to fail to fires is knowing what's causing them. 98% of the time it is from cleaning between shots (swabbing) and pushing fouling down the bore ahead of the jag/patch so that it blocks the flame channel. This can be eliminated a few different ways, below are my two preferred methods.
The most popular one is to pop a cap after swabbing, but before loading, while holding the muzzle pointed at a leaf or dry patch on the ground and make sure you see it move when the cap goes off. If it moves, you know the flame channel is clear.
Another method is to turn the jag down a bit so that when combined with the cleaning patch it goes down the bore smoothly without pushing fouling ahead of it, but then the patch bunches up when you reverse direction and it then pulls the fouling OUT of the barrel. This is helped by pushing the damp cleaning patch to the breach, waiting around 6 to 8 seconds so the fouling can soften a bit, and then pulling it back out of the bore. I turned my jag down by simply putting it in a cordless and then spinning it on a flat file. I went a little at a time and tested fit on a fouled bore as I went. I've not had a fail to fire since doing this, two or three years ago, and enjoy not having to use double the number of caps during a shooting session. I've not lost a cleaning patch off the jag either.

 

[BlackPowderGuy (AJHS)]

That is super helpful...I think simply never having owned this type of gun before, I am just feeling leery, not wanting to find myself paying hundreds of dollars to a gunsmith all the time. I understand know that it is relatively rare if proper procedures are followed. Now if only had guns in stock to buy!

 

[BlackPowderGuy (AJHS)]

I'll start by saying some simple hygiene is all that's required to handle and use lead safely. I'll never understand health concerns with handling lead, it's so easy to keep from incidentally ingesting it.

How? Serious question? I assume that a lead conical leaving the muzzle at 1600-1800 fps will fragment like nuts...how would you avoid lead microfragments?

 

[MrTom]

I'll start by saying some simple hygiene is all that's required to handle and use lead safely. I'll never understand health concerns with handling lead, it's so easy to keep from incidentally ingesting it. But to each their own.

A fail to fire is no big deal really, unless you make it one by doing the wrong thing(s) after it happens.
I've had the same experience as deermanok, pulling the nipple and trickling a bit of powder in and then replacing the nipple and firing a cap has ignited the main charge for me 100% of the time so far, it has yet to fail for me. It also works very well if you happen to forget to put the powder in before loading the projectile (they say there's two types of muzzleloaders: those that have dry balled and those that are gonna ). If several attempts of putting powder under the nipple didn't do the job, then I'd go straight to the grease gun method with any projectile other than a PRB. I have a lot of confidence in pulling a ball with a ball puller, I do it quite often after hunting if the weather was wet. Saves me from having to do a full cleaning like shooting it out causes.

An even better deterrent to fail to fires is knowing what's causing them. 98% of the time it is from cleaning between shots (swabbing) and pushing fouling down the bore ahead of the jag/patch so that it blocks the flame channel. This can be eliminated a few different ways, below are my two preferred methods.
The most popular one is to pop a cap after swabbing, but before loading, while holding the muzzle pointed at a leaf or dry patch on the ground and make sure you see it move when the cap goes off. If it moves, you know the flame channel is clear.
Another method is to turn the jag down a bit so that when combined with the cleaning patch it goes down the bore smoothly without pushing fouling ahead of it, but then the patch bunches up when you reverse direction and it then pulls the fouling OUT of the barrel. This is helped by pushing the damp cleaning patch to the breach, waiting around 6 to 8 seconds so the fouling can soften a bit, and then pulling it back out of the bore. I turned my jag down by simply putting it in a cordless and then spinning it on a flat file. I went a little at a time and tested fit on a fouled bore as I went. I've not had a fail to fire since doing this, two or three years ago, and enjoy not having to use double the number of caps during a shooting session. I've not lost a cleaning patch off the jag either.

This is stellar information for sidelock shooters.