The Cooper is Here!

[4gun-drill]

Sabotloader- thanks for the information. I was hoping we would get some new information durning SHOT.

 

[sabotloader]

Sabotloader- thanks for the information. I was hoping we would get some new information durning SHOT.

Copper is planning on having a booth at the Shot Show so a lot of information should come out from them there as well as possibly Friendship.

 

[WV Hunter]

Beautiful rifle. Only problem I can see is the ultra wide scope mounts dont leave much room for adjustment.

I didn't really notice this until I read your comment squeeze. I agree, seems like the long action bolt opening may create some problems.
How far does the bolt come back? I can't imagine it needs to be very far.

 

[sabotloader]

Beautiful rifle. Only problem I can see is the ultra wide scope mounts dont leave much room for adjustment.

Guess I am blind - I do not understand where you see 'ultra-wide' scope mounts? They look like normal to me.

 

[WV Hunter]

It appears to be a fairly wide distance between the rings, which would allow for limited range of movement when mounting a scope...can't slide if forward or backward much. If you look at the original picture, the front ring is near the bell...rear ring near adjuster.

 

[Squeeze]

Long action, pan up to see that the rings on this scope are against both opposite bells.

 

[fishhawk2700]

Well I guess eye relief will be a huge consideration when you choose a scope for this little beauty.

 

[Underclocked]

It is a great looking rifle.

Were I to design a high-dollar muzzleloader, it would NOT have a long bolt action. Makes no sense on a muzzleloader.

 

[sabotloader]

Long action, pan up to see that the rings on this scope are against both opposite bells.

O now I see what you mean - I thought you meant the bases were wide. But then it must not be a to big of a problem or all those people with the Coopers in rifles would surely be raising a fuss...

I will have to ask about that...

 

[Squeeze]

Its pretty uncommon for muzzleloader to be built around a long action. especially in house proprietary.

 

[1874sharpsshooter]

Its pretty uncommon for muzzleloader to be built around a long action. especially in house proprietary.

I bet their resident schill Toby with his special Cooper serial # naml1 ( see his website) will be the first to tell you otherwise . As long as they remain commited to him and his website as their #1 source of marketing that is . I thought about getting one , looks like a beautiful gun but Toby is enough of a turn off that i would go custom instead . I hope it works out for them though . I am sure losing one sale wont hurt them none . Sorry Sabotloader ,i know you wont like my saying that but thats my opinion . Hopefully getting in bed with Toby wont turn on them like it has for so many others .

 

[long shot]

why should it be marketed here. On another sight no one wanted it done at Friendship, because they are paper punchers as quote went and Friendship Shooters never had clue about hunting. These comments came from members of this sight, well known as being experts. Sorry just calling it like I read it

 

[sabotloader]

why should it be marketed here. On another sight no one wanted it done at Friendship, because they are paper punchers as quote went and Friendship Shooters never had clue about hunting. These comments came from members of this sight, well known as being experts. Sorry just calling it like I read it

Fivebull - I made that statement and I still pretty much believe it. What happens at Friendship really does not mean a thing to me when it comes to hunting. I do not use the loads and/or projectiles that you do either at Friendship or hunting. Long range shooting - shooting over say 250 yards is not that important here where I hunt - so long range has no bearing. Because a most of the rifles used or shot at Friendship have no bearing on whether it will be a good rotten weather - terrible hunting conditions rifle. The 1-18 you often use for Friendship is not a viable hunting rifle.

You or someone else also mentioned all of the advertising that could go on at Friendship - and in that aspect I totally agree it would be great exposure.

I also disagree with the 'tag' expert - I certainly never claimed that... Yet even if I might be Friendship would do nothing for me and I would say 1000's of others that do not go.

Finally I do respect your interest in Friendship and believe it is great for you but it is not for everyone.

mike

 

[Squeeze]

I Love the fact that things can be marketed here. I hear about a lot of new interesting stuff that I wouldn't be exposed to normally. And the testing, reports, and shared ideas is what keep the innovation wheels turning.

 

[Montana Muzzleloader]

I will attempt to address some concerns expressed on this thread recently.

I also noticed that the picture posted in an earlier comment labeled "western classic" is not a picture of a M22 ML action. It is a picture of our Model 52 which is a long action repeater that can handle cartridges up to the 416 Remington Magnum.

As for the scope base spacing, the scope base spacing on the M22 ML is exactly the same as for our center fire M22 which has been in production for nearly 25 years with no concerns about scope base spacing having ever been brought to our attention. I really don't think it will be difficult for consumers to mount optics.

As for the rifle being a "long action", it isn't. The action was designed to handle cartridges up to the length of a 308 Winchester. We later figured out how to modify it to accept longer cartridges but it was in fact designed to house the 22-250 Rem, 220 Swift, & the 308 Winchester based cartridges. It is also popular for the 22 BR and the 6mm BR and in the early days we even chambered the 22 and 6mm PPC's in them. The action is longer than needed for an inline muzzleloader, no doubt. The intent here was to use an existing action with as little modification as possible and not to clean sheet design the next wonder action.

I am well aware that the M22 ML is not for everyone. Price will deter some and design/features will deter others. I'm OK with that as there is a place in the sport for us all!

Though the M22 ML is not an inexpensive rifle, I took great pains to keep the cost as low as I realistically could. I will resist any efforts in the future to raise its cost as well. To have taken the plunge and designed an action from a clean sheet would have taken a lot longer to design, taken a lot of time to test/develop, and would have raised costs to a prohibitive level. Using an existing action prevented all of this even if some may have preferred a different design.

As for Friendship, I really want to go. I have always wanted to go there. I consider it something of a pilgrimage. That being said, there is nothing to prove or disprove by going to Friendship.

Custom serial numbers (as seen on one rifle) are available to anyone on any Cooper rifle for a $75 fee to cover the time spent manually programming the CNC machine to cut their personalized number.

 

[long shot]

Fact, 90% of rifles shot at Friendship can and are used to hunt, i don't understand what would cause them not to work under harsh conditions. They mostly are Flintlock or Percussion round ball.
I think Cooper has fine Rifle, as I have a 57

 

[52Bore]

I restarted this thread after seeing one for sale on GI. I thought it was being unveiled at the Shot Show this week, but apparently not since someone had one for sale.
I did read an article of Cooper and 50 shots over 3.5hrs = 4.3min/shot- not practical at all. The standard time at the NMLRA and International competitions 3min/shot - and that's plenty of time. But, this is not all the rifle's fault probably more the powder/sabot.
With any rifle today, custom wood choice is the most expensive option.
I can't imagine how a ML would think adding a barrel and breech plug onto a CF frame would be appealing? But, there are those that like it, just like those that like shooting Smokeless.
With my brief In-line experience, it seems Mr. Knights idea of the action being made integral with the barrel and Mr. Johnson with Ultimate utilizing a cartridge case were the most ingenious of all modern ML designs - All others have really offered nothing new in respect to design/function. Cooper is just offering a gun to sell and it gives us another choice.

As for Friendship, there has been more seen/done there in 3 years with respect to shooting a ML accurately than anything the manufactures have come up with or done in years -ask Knight, they came back from the first match and stated 'those guys are doing things we've never heard of'. I also have to give Knight credit: they have been the only rifle manufacture to attend and support the NMLRA match. The most consistent top rifles have been 2 opposites: BH209 and sabotless copper jacketed bullets (both rifle and copper jacket being custom and these rifles are using more than BH209 120gr max recommended) and the Black Powder, heavy lead bullets group. All of these guys hunt with their rigs. What's being advertised by rifle and component makers for today's ML hunter does not even come close to what these guys at Friendship are doing - it's been proven on paper and kills.

Good luck to Cooper and their new ML. We need to give them credit for entering the market.

 

[sendit]

I will attempt to address some concerns expressed on this thread recently.

I also noticed that the picture posted in an earlier comment labeled "western classic" is not a picture of a M22 ML action. It is a picture of our Model 52 which is a long action repeater that can handle cartridges up to the 416 Remington Magnum.

As for the scope base spacing, the scope base spacing on the M22 ML is exactly the same as for our center fire M22 which has been in production for nearly 25 years with no concerns about scope base spacing having ever been brought to our attention. I really don't think it will be difficult for consumers to mount optics.

As for the rifle being a "long action", it isn't. The action was designed to handle cartridges up to the length of a 308 Winchester. We later figured out how to modify it to accept longer cartridges but it was in fact designed to house the 22-250 Rem, 220 Swift, & the 308 Winchester based cartridges. It is also popular for the 22 BR and the 6mm BR and in the early days we even chambered the 22 and 6mm PPC's in them. The action is longer than needed for an inline muzzleloader, no doubt. The intent here was to use an existing action with as little modification as possible and not to clean sheet design the next wonder action.

I am well aware that the M22 ML is not for everyone. Price will deter some and design/features will deter others. I'm OK with that as there is a place in the sport for us all!

Though the M22 ML is not an inexpensive rifle, I took great pains to keep the cost as low as I realistically could. I will resist any efforts in the future to raise its cost as well. To have taken the plunge and designed an action from a clean sheet would have taken a lot longer to design, taken a lot of time to test/develop, and would have raised costs to a prohibitive level. Using an existing action prevented all of this even if some may have preferred a different design.

As for Friendship, I really want to go. I have always wanted to go there. I consider it something of a pilgrimage. That being said, there is nothing to prove or disprove by going to Friendship.

Custom serial numbers (as seen on one rifle) are available to anyone on any Cooper rifle for a $75 fee to cover the time spent manually programming the CNC machine to cut their personalized number.

So basically it's a M22 action. Does it use the standard .473" bolt or is it different. Can the breech plug be purchased by itself?

 

[sabotloader]

So basically it's a M22 action. Does it use the standard .473" bolt or is it different. Can the breech plug be purchased by itself?

I posed the question to Cooper and got this email in return...

The bolt is .700 in diameter, but doesn't have a standard bolt face. It is merely slotted to accept the 209 primer. Yes the BP can be puchased separately.

 

[sendit]

Thanks for the info sabotloader.
Rebarreling one of my M22's to a .45 ML is simple enough, it's the ignition system that I will have to work out.