Traditions UL LDR cleaning

Modern Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Modern Muzzleloading Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Joined
Apr 12, 2014
Messages
19
Reaction score
0
Strangest thing. Shot my new Traditions Ultralight LDR about three weeks ago. Swabbed between shots and gave her a couple more patches before leaving range. Went right home and did thorough cleaning. For me that's some large patches on a polymer cleaning jag on a Dewey rod. I use several bore cleaners, just experimenting, not all on same gun, just go with one. As I remember I used either T/C T-17 or Blue Wonder. Cleaned breech plug and inner threads, relubed breech plug threads, the whole process, thorough. Then I run a patch of bore butter then a dry patch, peer down bore with plug out aiming it at a bright window or a bright ceiling light. It was shiny clean. Checked her today by unscrewing breech plug and looking down barrel. Particles of black stuff, not super heavy at all, but enough to think what the heck! So cleaned her again, and noticed the first two or three patches coming out black with some light brown.

What the heck's going on? Clearly, I hadn't cleaned her completely you could say with truth, but.... Was this stuff in the rifling and by sitting came free or what? My t/c Impact and cva rifles never did this, and clean same process. Any thoughts, advice, explanation appreciated. Did this harm the barrel do you think? Thanks.
 
should be fine. maybe skip the last dry patch and let the bore butter sit till before next use, then dry patch. I would swap bore butter for any good oil, but everyone does it different.
 
Thanks, Squeeze. Any idea where the stuff came from when it was shiny bright after I cleaned it? Was some stuff in the rifling I didn't see and it fluffed out while sitting those few weeks? I know absurd question, but darn, she was clean to the eye!

Which brings me to the question of using a bore brush. Never have, patches with bore cleaners seem to do the job but then there's this experience with my LDR, which is a fantastic gun. Do you guys use a brass brush any? Necessary? If so, any recommendations of good ones? I guess I've shied away from them because I've read different things about their effect on the barrel. But brass is softer than steel for heaven's sake, isn't it?

Last, what kind of oil do you use after cleaning, Squeeze and anybody? Is Hoppe's good?
 
LoveSabots said:
Thanks, Squeeze. Any idea where the stuff came from when it was shiny bright after I cleaned it? Was some stuff in the rifling I didn't see and it fluffed out while sitting those few weeks? I know absurd question, but darn, she was clean to the eye!

Which brings me to the question of using a bore brush. Never have, patches with bore cleaners seem to do the job but then there's this experience with my LDR, which is a fantastic gun. Do you guys use a brass brush any? Necessary? If so, any recommendations of good ones? I guess I've shied away from them because I've read different things about their effect on the barrel. But brass is softer than steel for heaven's sake, isn't it?

Last, what kind of oil do you use after cleaning, Squeeze and anybody? Is Hoppe's good?

Try a nylon brush. I think MidwayUSA may be out but, check other sites. I use nylon and it works for me.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/864311 ... uctFinding

Any good gun oil will work.
 
I usually use hoppes #9 or rem-oil for the final go through. I have had that flash rust a day or 3 later on several guns. sometimes it happens, most times not. At first I tried to attribute it to the soapwater I was using. After reading the dutch schultz accurate muzzleloading pamphlets. and others that explained it as moisture getting into the pores of the metal and later seeping back out, just as oil seasons a frying pan after many uses. I stopped using the water method, But it still appeared on occasion with no rhyme or reason I could find. Ive never been able to pinpoint any true damage or even affect accuracy from it. just very light color on a clean swab after a day or a few days. No real rusting, just enough to show on a swab and drive you crazy. just do what you can, and forget about it :D For a while I tried to go back on any gun recently used after a few days and do a recheck. Sometimes I do, sometimes not.
 
Thanks, Encore50A and Squeeze. Squeeze, your post made me chuckle. It caught the sort of "existentialist" flavor of my posts. Damn it, where did that stuff come from, and why? Sort of like parsing out the meaning of life, ha, ha. I did think that that barely light brown color days later might be the borebutter changing color.

My "problem" is that I baby my muzzleloaders, not that I don't give them a good cleaning, but they're my "ladies." And I'm a little paranoid around them, though I've shot the traditional side locks for years. But these inlines have me addicted and fascinated, with all sorts of types, styles, and weights of bullets, different powders, and dang, I love those sabots. But I'm acutely aware of witness marks, overly so, I think, whenever I change any part of the equation in what I'm loading down the muzzle. A friend, a real outdoorsman, reloader, hunter, you name it, teacher of concealed classes, not into muzzleloaders per se, but was reloading, and pow, an explosion, and surgeries necessary on his hand. Yeah, took a shortcut of some sort, not sure what as I don't reload, and paid for it, though the hand is coming back slowing to near normal.

Are there any "don'ts" regarding muzzleloading beyond the obvious, like keep to your loading mantra and not get distracted, of course. I swab between shots as a matter of course, better for loading the next shot, but one reason is to make sure I don't pour powder down on a spark still there. Might as well run a tiny bit of T-13 on a big patch gently down her since you got to wait a few seconds at least anyway. Thanks for the info, Squeeze.
 
I have noticed it before and only on my ex-traditions pursuit xlt. I believe it is the steel used to make the barrels, the use of bore butter, and certain types of cleaners/powders.

When I first got my xlt, I was out of BH209 so I used pyrodex, cleaned the bore with tc-13, and protected the bore with bore butter and just like always, no bore problems. When I got more BH209, I shot that powder and cleaned the rifle with hoppe's no.9 and protected the bore with gun oil. After a week or so, I noticed the brown like deposits in the bore, but my rifle did develope some light pitting in the bore. It left me scratching my head because the rifle was cleaned immediately after every shooting session.

I'm thinking it was a combo of the different cleaners, powders, and cheaper steel that reacted together that produced the brown crud, who knows, it could be the bore butter leaching out of the steel.

I would recommend first trying some JB bore paste to clean all the bore butter out and never use it again or try flushing the barrel with hot soapy water to remove the bore butter and never use it again.
 
After one cleans you really need a light coat of gun oil inside to protect the bore. You won't get this from 'bore butter'. It doesn't matter what powder, pellet, or bullet you shoot. After you clean with whatever your powder calls for, run a patch dampened with Hoppes 9 or anything similar.

Then you just run a dry patch before your next loading, maybe dry the breech plug too. I really hate seeing M-L's reach an early demise, bore butter offers hardly any protection.
 
I went back through all my guns and used two different bore cleaners, inlines and traditional side locks. I used Breakfree CLP and then a dry patch or two, and then a patch of Hoppe's 9 oil to finish on a few of them. For the others I did the same process but instead of CLP I used Hoppe's #9 cleaner. But finished with a patch of Hoppes oil, as recommended by some of you, to finish all the guns. I think I'll save the bore butter to use on patches for round balls in traditionals. It seems to me you can't beat having a thin coating of "real" gun oil after the cleaner and a couple of dry patches.

Any opinions on those two cleaners, the CLP and Hoppe's #9? Has anyone tried Butch's Bore Shine? I think I want to go a bit "stronger" on the bore cleaner, stronger than what I think T/C T-13 and T-17 are, but don't want to get harsh, because cleaning isn't really all that difficult. It's pretty quick to get a shiny barrel with just a few patches. It's just that "last little bit" that's worrisome, but finishing with some Hoppe's oil would prevent that from being a problem, wouldn't it?

Any info or recommendations on any of all this appreciated. Lots of questions, but please pick and choose on any of it and info appreciated. Thanks.
 
I use Butch's bore shine between shots, then clean the barrel with it. After that,,,,,,,, and here it comes...... I've used both Birchwood Casey oil and RemOil. Some won't use RemOil but, I can assure you, its not hurt one single thing and a single rifle I've owned.
 
Why would you want Teflon in your bore. What benefit does it create?

I cant think of a single one and i can assure you i had several bad experiences with it especially when used with Triple7. NATO found several reasons to phase it out of many (if not all) military CLP contracts. Some of them are quite toxic too. The current milspec CLP i can get is about $25 a gallon at gun shows and contains no Teflon. Its been far better IN a bore than RemOil has ever been for me at a fraction of the cost.

I would get Ballistol if you want a time tested common product that cleans/protects both MLs and your CFs. Montana Xtreme products are chemically very similar except for the solvent base. There are several good real synthetic oils that are far better than RemOil if you want a highend storage product.
 
GM54-120 said:
Why would you want Teflon in your bore. What benefit does it create?

I cant think of a single one and i can assure you i had several bad experiences with it especially when used with Triple7. NATO found several reasons to phase it out of many (if not all) military CLP contracts. Some of them are quite toxic too. The current milspec CLP i can get is about $25 a gallon at gun shows and contains no Teflon. Its been far better IN a bore than RemOil has ever been for me at a fraction of the cost.

I would get Ballistol if you want a time tested common product that cleans/protects both MLs and your CFs. Montana Xtreme products are chemically very similar except for the solvent base. There are several good real synthetic oils that are far better than RemOil if you want a highend storage product.

I can't say teflon creates any benefit but, Rem Oil is also used by thousands with no ill affects. It is suggested that it not be used in AR/AK platform or type rifles, which is most likely why the military isn't using it. Could you please explain your ill affects when using Rem Oil with T7? Isn't Ballistol a mixture of mineral oil, alcohol and plant extracts?

The object is to thoroughly coat the inside of the barrel with a rust preventative, gun oil. Most problems occur when shooters use to much and it gravitates into the flash hole and flash channel, while setting barrel up in a safe. Or, they used WD-40 instead of an oil, don't do that. You don't need a military grade lubricant, but that won't hurt either. CLEAN completely and lubricate the inside and outside of the firearm and keep it in a low humidity environment with a "firearm lubricant".
 
OK, so Teflon IN the bore has no useful purpose, If it did we would likely be using a better friction reducer that does not burn and give off toxic fumes.

Teflon IN the bore made the T7 crud ring far worse if not thoroughly removed before firing. I had to use brake cleaner to get acceptable results. MX products did not show this side effect at all. When using BH209 the fouling had almost a sticky consistency and my first shot POI was off much more than when using MX products. Using MX i could just fire 2-3 primers and dry swab once after to achieve extremely good first shot POI. The testing in a 308/7.62NATO rifle by the US military in a M14 IIRC, it took roughly 20 shots before the rifle settled down and grouped well.

http://www.imageseek.com/m1a/M14_Preser ... cation.pdf

Anti-wear (AW) additive - Solid lubricant pa
rticles are dispersed in grease to prevent
metal-to-metal contact of lubricated surfac
es. These solid particles are known as anti-
wear additives. Phosphorous
and zinc compounds and suspended
polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE) are common AW
additives.
Anti-wear additives are useful
up to about 465 to 480 degrees Fahrenheit. Above that temperature range, the
compounds begin to break down. Anti-wear addi
tives will reduce the oxidation resistance
of grease. Consequently, grease containing an
ti-wear additives will need to be reapplied
much more often than grease without
AW or oxidation inhibitor additives



Additionally, CLP with PTFE
additive left in the bore will cause erratic
accuracy for as many as twenty shots out of
the rifle until blown out of the muzzle.


Experience of the U. S. Marine Corps found that when CLP containing PTFE additive was
left in the bore of a M14 rifle it would shoot erratically until the CLP had been blown out
after the first fifteen to twenty rounds of fire. The accuracy would return indicating the
washing out of the CLP with its PTFE additive


In a 1973 study of PTFE resin coated cookware, pet birds were found to die from the toxic fumes of PTFE when the PTFE resin coated cookware reached 536 degrees Fahrenheit

As PTFE is heated above food cooking temperature, it begins to emit ultra fine particulate matter at 464 degrees Fahrenheit. It melts at 621 degrees Fahrenheit. Further heating of
PTFE to very high temperatures results in the release of several toxic gases:
At 680 degrees Fahrenheit - difluoroacetic acid (DFA), hexafluoropropene (HFP), monofluoroacetic acid (MFA), perfluorooctanoic acid (PFOA), tetrafluoroethylene (TFE)
and trifluoroacetic acid (TFA)
At 878 degrees Fahrenheit - silicon tetrafluoride (SiF
At 887 degrees Fahrenheit - perfluoroisobutene (PFIB)
At 932 degrees Fahrenheit - carbonyl fluoride (CFO and hydrofluoric acid (HF)
At 1,112 degrees Fahrenheit - octafluoro cyclobutane (OFCB), perfluorobutane (PFB) and trifluoroacetic acid fluoride (CF COF),
At 1,202 degrees Fahrenheit - carbon tetrafluoride (CF)



If it takes that many CF shots to settle down, you can only imagine how many sabot loads would be required. Granted i cant imagine a ML barrel reaching temps high enough to burn PTFE but if it has no benefit, why use it at all IN the bore? There are plenty of other options that dont contain Teflon at a similar price point.

Yes, medical grade light mineral oil is the main lubricant in Ballistol and MX products, have you ever looked at the RemOil MSDS? The top ingredients listed are mineral spirits and aliphatic hydrocarbons. Its not a true synthetic either yet it cost more than a good automotive synthetic like Amsoil.
 
BuckDoeHunter said:
I have noticed it before and only on my ex-traditions pursuit xlt. I believe it is the steel used to make the barrels, the use of bore butter, and certain types of cleaners/powders.
I would recommend first trying some JB bore paste to clean all the bore butter out and never use it again or try flushing the barrel with hot soapy water to remove the bore butter and never use it again.

My thoughts as well...the rest of the above is also good info. Learn something new everyday....
 
Bore Butter can be a good product but you have to jump through some hoops to get good results. You MUST displace/remove all water before application or it will trap the water underneath it. BB is still pretty poor in terms on protection though and it wont "season" your bore. Cast iron coated with cooking oil and placed in a 400F degree oven gets seasoned. Our barrels are not CAST iron and ive never put mine in a 400F+ oven.

The ONLY benefit ive seen from BB when used correctly is a reduction in the T7 crud ring. My old Thunderhawk can be loaded 4-5 times before the crud ring is too bad to load another sabot. The new owner uses MX Bore Conditioner and it still can be loaded 4-5 times. I used BB more to refresh conical lube and on wool wads than as a bore oil. It works in a pinch.

Removal by a good scrubbing with JBs is a good idea and should resolve your issue.

Ballistol was invented during the transitions from BP to cordite to smokeless. It will clean the fouling from all of them. Its basically non toxic and was used by the German military from 1905-1945. Its safe on stocks and leather. It is actually good for leather and even some stock finishes. Many modern so-called synthetic products use mineral oil as the main lubricant/preservative.

I cant say its the best but it has a LOT going for it. Rig, Barricade and Eezox are better at protection in all the tests ive seen.
 
I have great luck with Barricade and I have heard only good things about Eezox. I have seen some tests where Balistol has not performed as well on bare metal exposed to the elements.
 
flounder said:
I have great luck with Barricade and I have heard only good things about Eezox. I have seen some tests where Balistol has not performed as well on bare metal exposed to the elements.

The Barricade is what I use in my Ultimate now.
 
Ballistol is just a very flexible non toxic product. It is not the best but does many things well. Its even a reasonably good patch lube when diluted.

Eezox contains Trichloroethylene which is very toxic, Otherwise it is an excellent product and it contains no PTFEs or moly. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trichloroethylene

I would avoid most aerosol versions of popular CLPs too. They can damage stocks.

Barricade contains...................wait for it..............................Mineral oil :D

https://www.birchwoodcasey.com/getattac ... 2.pdf.aspx
 
Ive been quite happy with the results from MX products. My only complaint is the solvent tends to evaporate easily even in a container. IIRC its ether based where Ballistol is isobutyl alcohol based. The complaint is relatively minor IMO unless you plan to mix it with water.

Slip2000 is supposed to be "Green" and non toxic. Reviews are a bit mixed but it is cheaper than some big names.

I sent Greg a Knight Elite im pretty sure i had only treated with MX Bore Conditioner and it had set for quite a while before i sold it. The bore appeared pristine after many many shots and the long term storage with only MX to protect it. I dont believe it conditions anything just like i dont believe BB seasons a bore but it sure works great with BH209 and T7.

I would recommend another product if very long term storage was the goal. No CLP is that great at very long term storage. They will never compare to cosmoline after 20yrs in a surplus box. They were never meant to accomplish that task. IIRC Rig Grease not the #2 oil is supposed to handle fairly long term very well.
 
Back
Top