What type of Lead For Bullets??

[ShawnT]

Hey Guys,

It has been a long time since I cast .490 round balls for my old CVA Mountain Rifle. I have read a few of your posts about casting conical's. I used to shoot a lot of the Knight 310 lead HPs in the Supplied sabot in my MK-95 .50 cal for years. It was always really accurate, and a good tough bullet and I do not ever recall recovering one of them. I used to push them along over 100gns of Pyro RS. I did not hesitate to take High Shoulder shots with them either. My Largest buck was taken with one of those shots and it broke both shoulders and kept on going. On one occasion I shot a deer through a tree that was maybe 4" in diameter and still got the little buck. No I was not trying to do that but crap happens sometimes. :wink: The Bullet did have a chunk break/sheer off but the bulk of it still hit the mark and went one though him. Knight made that bullet in 260gn and 310 grain and they are .452's. When Knight was about to go under last time the 260 seemed to be dropped as they did not advertise it and I though it was just a matter of time before the 310 was gone. That is when I got interested in the Speer's and found a new favorite.

This is the Knight bullet I was referring to.


So what I am leading up to???

Bullets are just plain hard to get at the moment, we are all having that problem. I have not seen stock in Speer Bullets in quite some time now. I personally have never shot a conical, not really sure why either, but just always shot the Knight in the sabot when it came to Lead. So for all you gents that do shoot a lot of lead and especially you fellers that cast bullets, I got some questions for you.

First, what type of lead would you use to cast this type of bullet that is to be shot in a sabot, Pure lead, Wheel Weights, etc. and why? I am not a scientist of any kind so keep it simple Please. :lol:

Second, What do you think of having a mold made to match that 310 Knight but make it in a .500 diameter bullet for my .54cal?

Third, Can a mold manufacturer make the mold to match close to a specific weight that you want to shoot, such as make this bullet in the 325 to 350gn range?

4th, Who do you think could make that mold and do you have any idea on what the mold would cost?

Thanks,

 

[cayuga]

I use only pure lead when making muzzleloader bullets.

Pure lead has a BHN of 5=6
Wheel Weights have a BHN of 11-15

so when you make your projectiles out of wheel weights, they can be twice the BHN of pure lead. Meaning they will be much harder. Now if this is what you want, then by all means make them. I have shot wheel weights and they worked.. and lets leave it at that. They were hard to load and we shot only short distance.

 

[ShawnT]

Hey Cayuga,

Thanks. I am not really versed in the Types of lead used. I've seen some discussions but was not too sure what is really the best. I would not want to make them too hard but want one that would hold up to speeds we can get in the sabot rifles and still give good expansion. I was reading on Midway that some of the alloys they sell state they would make bullets too brittle for hunting and would shatter on bone :shock: and are meant for target shooting, so that is not good. I've seen some talk about using antimony or tin in their mix and this is where I sort of get lost. I am pretty sure that the lead I used to have was pure lead and the round balls I had were very good for hunting and target, but I know they were shot at a lot slower speeds than I might get them too in a sabot. Do you know if BullShop and NoExcuses are made of Pure Lead, those seem to have very good expansion? I was wondering about wheel weights as I was thinking it might be easier to obtain locally, but was afraid it might be a bit hard.

Thanks,

 

[cayuga]

if you drag a nail over the lead you have and it scratches the lead with ease, it is normally pure lead. Some say use your fingernails. I don't like long fingernails. But pure lead still holds up to velocity.

I shot a pure lead roundball out of a .54 caliber through two deer. The roundball, recovered out of the second deer lost only 30% of its original weight and flattened to a beautiful if not near perfect bullet you'd want.

 

[wolfer]

I have shot cast ML bullets for over 45 years, I'm 64, and the only soft lead I cast for ML is in REAL and Minnie bullets. They need to be soft to load and function as intended. For round ball and sabot bullets I prefer a harder alloy. In round ball they are already 45-50-54-58-69 cal and that is bigger than most CF bullets expand so it is length of wound channel that counts. My favorite alloy is cast as 1-1+2%. Being 1 part soft lead -- 1 part clip on wheel weight lead + 2% tin. This alloy gives superb terminal performance in ML and BPC hunting bullet. I have shot a lot of deer size animals and never a bullet failure with this. I am a believer that 2 holes are better than 1 so making a pass through with maximum damage is important. Some of my sabot bullets are FN and some have a shallow HP but none have a deep HP. JM $.02, W

 

[Squeeze]

^^agree with above^^ I cast roundballs, maxi's, .45 cal for sabot in .50 and 12 ga slug, all out of a mix of pure and older WW stash stockpile. I only use pure lead for real. I know its not as hard as todays WW and I dont have a hardness tester so I cant say the exact antimony percentage. but Ill melt and mix in large batches in an old 10 qt dutch oven on a cajun cooker burner and make ingots to keep uniformity better and have shot deer with many combos in several calibers never a problem. But Ive also shot many deer with powerbelts I used for years with no problems. But I also dont remember any really bad shot placement either. all my shots are very short range, mostly just due to the thick type woods.
Ive also had several custom molds made from several different companies and the prices werent much more than any stock comparible mould blank. some companies ive had good experiences with and would recommend (no particular order) Moose moulds http://www.moosemoulds.com/ ballisti cast http://www.ballisti-cast.com/ (and im sure a few others i just cant recall names for at the moment) any were willing and able to produce about anything you could come up with a sample for, or describe well enough to agree upon

 

[Widude]

I'm with the above posters. I have done the Lee REAL conicals. They need softer lead to 'engrave' into the rifling.

The easiest way to cast is a pistol bullet which will be held in a plastic sabot. In this instance hardness isn't much an issue. This is what I do more often. I cast bullets for centerfire handgun reloading, 45 & 44 cal, which can be used in the M-L. The only slight drawback is you have to get the plastic sabots of the appropriate size, no biggie.

Back to bullets. If you look around they can be found. You may have to get your 3rd or 4th choice though.

 

[ShawnT]

I have shot cast ML bullets for over 45 years, I'm 64, and the only soft lead I cast for ML is in REAL and Minnie bullets. They need to be soft to load and function as intended. For round ball and sabot bullets I prefer a harder alloy. In round ball they are already 45-50-54-58-69 cal and that is bigger than most CF bullets expand so it is length of wound channel that counts. My favorite alloy is cast as 1-1+2%. Being 1 part soft lead -- 1 part clip on wheel weight lead + 2% tin. This alloy gives superb terminal performance in ML and BPC hunting bullet. I have shot a lot of deer size animals and never a bullet failure with this. I am a believer that 2 holes are better than 1 so making a pass through with maximum damage is important. Some of my sabot bullets are FN and some have a shallow HP but none have a deep HP. JM $.02, W

wolfer,

Thanks for the info. The Knight bullet in the pic above also has just a shallow Hollow Point. It is not that deep. I would love to know what mix it is made of but have no way to figure that out and Knight don't advertise that. That bullet has also never let me down and I always got pass thoughs on it. I only stoped using it when they looked like they would stop producing them. They also never made, at least to my knowledge, that bullet in a .500 diameter for the .54 and just used the .452 310gn in a 45x54 sabot, but do not sell that combo anymore. I would really like to have a bullet that is .500 for the .54cal.

 

[ShawnT]

^^agree with above^^ I cast roundballs, maxi's, .45 cal for sabot in .50 and 12 ga slug, all out of a mix of pure and older WW stash stockpile. I only use pure lead for real. I know its not as hard as todays WW and I dont have a hardness tester so I cant say the exact antimony percentage. but Ill melt and mix in large batches in an old 10 qt dutch oven on a cajun cooker burner and make ingots to keep uniformity better and have shot deer with many combos in several calibers never a problem. But Ive also shot many deer with powerbelts I used for years with no problems. But I also dont remember any really bad shot placement either. all my shots are very short range, mostly just due to the thick type woods.
Ive also had several custom molds made from several different companies and the prices werent much more than any stock comparible mould blank. some companies ive had good experiences with and would recommend (no particular order) Moose moulds http://www.moosemoulds.com/ ballisti cast http://www.ballisti-cast.com/ (and im sure a few others i just cant recall names for at the moment) any were willing and able to produce about anything you could come up with a sample for, or describe well enough to agree upon

Squeeze,

Thanks for the info and the links. I could not get in the Moose Mould site, they might be working on it. I'll try again later on. I did not really plan to cast full bore conical, just something for Sabots. It sort of suprizes me that no one I have seen offers a mould similar to the bullet in the pic above. Most have the lube or crimp rings and none are smooth sided like the Knight, maybe the do exist but at least I have not seen one yet. That is why I figured I would have to have a custom made. Ballisti-cast did have 2 patterns that looked good in .500, the 1435 and 1436.

The closest bullet I have seen to the Knight is the Keith Nose from PR Bullets. He advertises a "50" with sabot for the .54 cal and I assume that is a .500 diameter since it comes with a Purple sabot which is a 50x54. In the past when I got some of their bullets I was suprised when I got them that the bullets were smaller in diameter with thicker sabots, like 40 cal and 44 cal in sabots for the 50 cal.

 

[ShawnT]

I'm with the above posters. I have done the Lee REAL conicals. They need softer lead to 'engrave' into the rifling.

The easiest way to cast is a pistol bullet which will be held in a plastic sabot. In this instance hardness isn't much an issue. This is what I do more often. I cast bullets for centerfire handgun reloading, 45 & 44 cal, which can be used in the M-L. The only slight drawback is you have to get the plastic sabots of the appropriate size, no biggie.

Back to bullets. If you look around they can be found. You may have to get your 3rd or 4th choice though.

muskrat,

Thanks. I have thought about conicals but really would rather shoot pistol type Bullets in Sabots. I was pretty impressed by the recent pics of the BullShop and NoExcuse bullets, but a couple have told me that Bullshop is not shipping anything, but again I was more interested in Bullets for sabots. I currently buy all my sabots seperately so that is a non issue for me, like you say no biggie.

It really does suprise me though that all mouls sold seem to have the lube and crimp rings and no one already sells a production mould for a smooth sided bullet like the Knight or the Keith nose like PR sells. Have any of you seen one?? I have looked at RCBS, Lee, Lyman, Mountain Mould, and a couple more and none are listed.

 

[wolfer]

If you find a mold you like but it has loob gruves no problem to get them out. You can get them milled out or send to some of the guys that will make HP rigs for existing molds and they can cut/mill the mold to smooth side, cut out heel or boattails, enlarge dia., cut mold shorter for a shorter cast boolit etc.... Check out the link to cast boolits forums, the place to find guys to make/fix your molds.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forum.php

good luck, W

 

[idahoron]

If anyone needs to find out how hard some bullets or lead is send me a couple and I will test it. Bullets are the best size but I can test about any size.

I shoot Lee 500 S&W bullets Paper Patched and sized to .501 after that they are ready to shoot. I take pure virgin lead and add lead shot to it until it is about 6 to 7 BHN or to be exact .035 on my hardness tester. I have developed this hardness after years of shooting targets and game. I used to shoot Hornady 410 gr great plains bullets. I got wind that they were going to be removed from production and bought 30 boxes. After buying those I decided with the stash I would now work on a replacement. So I ended up with the Paper Patched bullets. Now I have a couple hundred pounds of pure lead and 1000 sheets of Paper and I am set for a life time supply of bullets. I don't have to wait in line for bullets. I have a couple thousand caps and I am worried about that.
The Lee 500 S&W bullets are the best game bullets I have ever shot. Ron

 

[Squeeze]

http://moosemoulds.wix.com/mm2013 Its working for me now, they have a couple of options close to what you may be looking for. When I used them the web wasnt up yet, they had a facebook page I got the number from and called direct. They seemed more than happy to make anything custom.

 

[ShawnT]

If anyone needs to find out how hard some bullets or lead is send me a couple and I will test it. Bullets are the best size but I can test about any size.

I shoot Lee 500 S&W bullets Paper Patched and sized to .501 after that they are ready to shoot. I take pure virgin lead and add lead shot to it until it is about 6 to 7 BHN or to be exact .035 on my hardness tester. I have developed this hardness after years of shooting targets and game. I used to shoot Hornady 410 gr great plains bullets. I got wind that they were going to be removed from production and bought 30 boxes. After buying those I decided with the stash I would now work on a replacement. So I ended up with the Paper Patched bullets. Now I have a couple hundred pounds of pure lead and 1000 sheets of Paper and I am set for a life time supply of bullets. I don't have to wait in line for bullets. I have a couple thousand caps and I am worried about that.
The Lee 500 S&W bullets are the best game bullets I have ever shot. Ron

Ron,

Is this the same bullet you refer to?

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/266944 ... -gas-check

I seem to remember seeing one of your posts about paper patching but don't remember the bullet. If it is like the one from the mould above, that is fairly close to what I have in mind. I would rather get it smooth sided and closer to 350gn though. I'm not sure I really have a great reason for the "smooth sided" verses the lube groove type but it is just what I have shot and have in mind for Sabots. As for the hollow point.. Not sure that matters or if that shallow HP really helps that much with expansion but then again some of the Speer's I shoot have shallow Hp's too. I just might Pm you one day soon and see if you can test one of these Knights for me.

Thanks,

 

[ShawnT]

http://moosemoulds.wix.com/mm2013 Its working for me now, they have a couple of options close to what you may be looking for. When I used them the web wasnt up yet, they had a facebook page I got the number from and called direct. They seemed more than happy to make anything custom.

Hey Squeeze,

I did Google them and used a different link and was able to get in to their site. Closest thing I saw was the Smith/Maynard, it was close. Made minus the lower ring and then smooth sided that just might work. Since I live in NY they are not that far away.

wolfer,

I did look at a couple threads on castbullits. Thanks for the link. There is a lot of info to sift through there and that might take a bit of time. There was one post that did get me thinking about something though.

One poster made a statement about having a mould made that is a copy of a current production bullet could be considered "stealing" by some. What do you all think about that one. :huh?:

While the bullet in the picture I posted above is being currently produced, it is not available in a .500 diameter, and I am not thinking of going into business selling them. I suppose I could contact Knight and ask them about it, or ask them if they would consider making a .500 dia copy, but that would defeat what I am wanting to do. At the moment this is just something I am researching and asking for info on, but seriously thinking about.

Thanks guys! Keep it coming,

 

[wolfer]

Hey Squeeze,

wolfer,

I did look at a couple threads on castbullits. One poster made a statement about having a mould made that is a copy of a current production bullet could be considered "stealing" by some. What do you all think about that one. :huh?:

It's not stealing. If you were makin bullets and selling them I'd be stealing if the bullet shape was copyrighted or patented, and you'd have to have a BATF license and etc... from the gov. The company that makes pyrodex and white hot pellets has a patent and that is why others can't make cylindrical shaped pellets, pioneer and Shockey use "sticks" that are rectangular, the shape is legally protected. Copy away on the bullets.

 

[ShawnT]

Hey Squeeze,

wolfer,

I did look at a couple threads on castbullits. One poster made a statement about having a mould made that is a copy of a current production bullet could be considered "stealing" by some. What do you all think about that one. :huh?:

It's not stealing. If you were makin bullets and selling them I'd be stealing if the bullet shape was copyrighted or patented, and you'd have to have a BATF license and etc... from the gov. The company that makes pyrodex and white hot pellets has a patent and that is why others can't make cylindrical shaped pellets, pioneer and Shockey use "sticks" that are rectangular, the shape is legally protected. Copy away on the bullets.

That was sort of the way I was thinking too. I am thinking about trying to make up a sample bullet this weekend. Just have to figure out how I can do that, with my limited tooling. I have a 3 day weekend and was planning a trip to Cabela's in Pa saturday to pick up some BH (If they have any) and maybe some other stuff. Might even sell them a 22 target rifle.

The more I think about this the more I think I really want to try it too. The upside is it will give me a cheap to shoot bullet that should be great on game, and a great winter project to occupy my time.

 

[ShawnT]

One more question for the casters among us. How much odor do you get from your electric pots? I'm sure that there is some and especially when you put some flux in the lead. I live in an apartment and it just dawned on me that there might be some strange odors to attract attention.

 

[GM54-120]

LBT will make you a mold. http://www.lbtmoulds.com/moulds.shtml

Tell them:
Caliber
Weight
Metplat size
Smooth sided for sabots

They are not cheap but ive heard they are nice molds.

MUZZLE LOADER RIFLE BULLETS

Our 44 LFN in weights from 280 to 320 grains, cut with smooth sides and a specially beveled base to slip into sabots, is an extremely popular and effective way to hunt with these guns. Order the weight you want and specify muzzle loader rifle. We can cut moulds of an weight and caliber you need for sabots.

PRICE: 2 Cavity - $125.00 4 - Cavity - $175.00 Shipping - $10.00 for one or more molds to any US address.

 

[ShawnT]

LBT will make you a mold. http://www.lbtmoulds.com/moulds.shtml

Tell them:
Caliber
Weight
Metplat size
Smooth sided for sabots

They are not cheap but ive heard they are nice molds.

MUZZLE LOADER RIFLE BULLETS

Our 44 LFN in weights from 280 to 320 grains, cut with smooth sides and a specially beveled base to slip into sabots, is an extremely popular and effective way to hunt with these guns. Order the weight you want and specify muzzle loader rifle. We can cut moulds of an weight and caliber you need for sabots.

PRICE: 2 Cavity - $125.00 4 - Cavity - $175.00 Shipping - $10.00 for one or more molds to any US address.

I looked at their site once but somehow overlooked that tidbit, looks like they would know exactly what I would want. I guess would have to decide on the width of the meplat, and since the Knight looks very similar in profile to the Rainier that meplat might be good, or even a touch wider say between a Unicore and the Rainier. No they are not cheap but I seem to remember seeing that Lee charges $175 for tooling on a custom order so this is not that bad for the 2 cavity. That is around the cost of 4 or 5 boxes of Speer Deep Curls.