Which Would You Choose?

[Matthew323]

If you had a choice between the following two Rice muzzleloading barrels; one of which was going to be made up into a compact hunting rifle.......

1. Fast Twist, 4140CM steel, .45 caliber; 0.450" bore diameter × 0.458" groove diameter × 0.004" deep square bottom grooves × 1:14" rate of twist; straight tapered octagon; 15/16" at the breech × 7/8" at the muzzle × 25" long, with a L&R 15/16" percussion snail drum hooked breech plug, 5.625" long beavertail tang; 5/8"-18 threads (T.O.W. # PLUG-LR-15-5) fitted, timed, & witness marked.

2. Patched Ball Twist, 4140CM steel; .66 caliber, 0.672" bore diameter × 0.692" groove diameter × 0.010" deep square bottom grooves × 1:66" rate of twist; straight double-tapered octagon; 25" long × 1.094" diameter at the breech × 1.054" diameter at the 8" mark × 1.006" diameter at the muzzle; with a L&R 11/8" flint hooked breech plug, 5.625" long beavertail tang; 3/4"-16 threads (M-L Builder's Supply #31387) machined to size, fitted, timed, and witness marked.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

I would go with #1. Only because im not a RB shooter. And it would give you so much more distance. I dont think you are going to get much farther than 100 with #2. imho.
They both sound like nice choices but completely dif types of shootin.

 

[deermanok]

I'm more of a patched round ball guy, so 2nd choice.

 

[Bad Karma]

I’ll side with the fast twisting.45… you can reach out there with proper sights and load development.

 

[Idaholewis]

Me being a Bullet guy i am naturally gonna go with the Fast Twist .45 Cal, That said, I have a LOT of fun with Patched Roundball when i get out and Shoot them

 

[rugerbh103]

#2 sounds like a lot of fun to me.

 

[Scott-WV]

Being a roundball shooter, #2 would be my choice.

 

[Ninering62]

If you had a choice between the following two Rice muzzleloading barrels; one of which was going to be made up into a compact hunting rifle.......

1. Fast Twist, 4140CM steel, .45 caliber; 0.450" bore diameter × 0.458" groove diameter × 0.004" deep square bottom grooves × 1:14" rate of twist; straight tapered octagon; 15/16" at the breech × 7/8" at the muzzle × 25" long, with a L&R 15/16" percussion snail drum hooked breech plug, 5.625" long beavertail tang; 5/8"-18 threads (T.O.W. # PLUG-LR-15-5) fitted, timed, & witness marked.

2. Patched Ball Twist, 4140CM steel; .66 caliber, 0.672" bore diameter × 0.692" groove diameter × 0.010" deep square bottom grooves × 1:66" rate of twist; straight double-tapered octagon; 25" long × 1.094" diameter at the breech × 1.054" diameter at the 8" mark × 1.006" diameter at the muzzle; with a L&R 11/8" flint hooked breech plug, 5.625" long beavertail tang; 3/4"-16 threads (M-L Builder's Supply #31387) machined to size, fitted, timed, and witness marked.

#1

 

[45-70]

why 14 twist

 

[Matthew323]

why 14 twist

MtMonkey convinced me to go with a 1:14" rate of twist because he has been shooting the very long 0.400" diameter bullets from Pittman in the light blue Harvester Crush Rib .45 caliber sabots for .40 caliber bullets. With stunning accuracy.

The ballistics calculators also show a 1:14" twist being capable of easily stabilizing lead conical .45 caliber bullets up to, and heavier than 500 grains. If one is in the mood to reach way out there like Idaholewis, you, Encore50A, and some of the other members here do.

 

[Matthew323]

I think that the Pittman bullets that MtMonkey has been shooting are well over 1" long, with an extremely high BC.

I checked the Pittman website.

Accumax 225 grain = 1.280" long
Accumax 250 grain = 1.340" long

If I remember correctly, it was the 250 grain bullets that he was getting near one-hole groups with in his smokeless muzzleloaders.

 

[leftyml]

The 40 cal pittman accumax 225 gr. shot great in my sml encore with hlb sabots

 

[GM54-120]

In a 45cal side lock i just dont see a good reason to go faster than a 1-18. That will stabilize even 550gr+ conicals at a fairly low MV. The longest conical in 45 on Accurates site is like 1.375" long and around 550gr. A 1-18 handles that without cracking a sweat a 1150fps

 

[Idaholewis]

With Real Blackpowder, using #11 Percussion Caps, a 1:14 Twist Side-lock would Foul, Choke itself out in 2 Shots, 3rd Shot would be a Hangfire or a complete Fail to fire, UNLESS you pop 1 Cap off straight through after Swabbing the Bore (EACH Shot) This is necessary to Break the Crud/fouling loose in the Flame Channel, Patented breech. I wonder how I know this?

 

[Idaholewis]

In short, With a Sidelock Muzzleloader using Real Blackpowder & #11 Percussion caps, The Faster the Twist, & Smaller the Bore diameter, the LARGER the Problem with Fouling & Choking themselves out. The worst barrel i have for this is my 1:15 Twist 35 Cal, It chokes itself out the Very 1st Shot, and will HANGFIRE or Completely FAIL to fire on Shot #2 if I forget to Pop a Cap off Straight through to break the Crud free in the Fire Channel/Patented Breech. My 1:17, and 1:18 Twists are next in line, about 2 Shots, maybe 3 and they are CHOKED Out.

The Larger the Bore Diameter, and Slower the Twist, the LESS the Problem. If you don’t like to Swab, and Pop 1 Cap off Straight through to break the Crud Free in the Fire Channel/Patented Breech you are MUCH better off with a Larger Bore (.50 Cal & up) With a Mid (1:48) to Slow Twist

 

[Matthew323]

If one was to run a 4140CM steel, fast twist, .45 caliber barrel (1:14" to 1:18"), with a flat-faced, traditional, flint breech plug that had a 0.500" long thread journal; & with a 1/4"-28 threaded, RMC, AMPCO bronze touch hole liner (socket head allen wrench or screwdriver slotted) that was coned on the inside for fast ignition........

How would that stack up against a snail drum percussion breech plug with its anti-chamber, flash channel, nipple touch hole, and nipple?

Because, that's the only reason I was thinking of the 1:14" twist, .45 caliber 4140CM steel, fast twist barrel that would stabilize those long, high BC, .40 caliber Pittman bullets.

Sending a light blue, Harvester Crush Rib sabot down range with one of those Pittman 250 grain, 1.340" long Accumax bullets from a flintlock. I DO NOT think INSIDE the box. With a moderate charge of fffg black powder, say 70-85 grains.

And, now that there is a .40 caliber CVA Paramount muzzleloading rifle, perhaps Harvester will bring out a Crush Rib sabot in .45 caliber that will handle truly long, super high BC .40 caliber bullets. Like the Pittman Accumax 300 grain that measures 1.480" long. Which require a 1:14" rate of twist.

 

[HV-Muzzleloaders]

If one was to run a 4140CM steel, fast twist, .45 caliber barrel (1:14" to 1:18"), with a flat-faced, traditional, flint breech plug that had a 0.500" long thread journal; & with a 1/4"-28 threaded, RMC, AMPCO bronze touch hole liner (socket head allen wrench or screwdriver slotted) that was coned on the inside for fast ignition........

How would that stack up against a snail drum percussion breech plug with its anti-chamber, flash channel, nipple touch hole, and nipple?

Because, that's the only reason I was thinking of the 1:14" twist, .45 caliber 4140CM steel, fast twist barrel that would stabilize those long, high BC, .40 caliber Pittman bullets.

Sending a light blue, Harvester Crush Rib sabot down range with one of those Pittman 250 grain, 1.340" long Accumax bullets from a flintlock. I DO NOT think INSIDE the box. With a moderate charge of fffg black powder, say 70-85 grains.

And, now that there is a .40 caliber CVA Paramount muzzleloading rifle, perhaps Harvester will bring out a Crush Rib sabot in .45 caliber that will handle truly long, super high BC .40 caliber bullets. Like the Pittman Accumax 300 grain that measures 1.480" long. Which require a 1:14" rate of twist.

I did a little bit of experimental work with 250 grain 40 caliber bullets in the Harvester HP sabots in my 1/20 twist smokeless muzzleloader.
I found out the sabots are not really quite long enough for the longer bullet. This can induce wobble.
My groups were not good compared to some other combinations I have tried.
If you can find a longer sabot your idea might work.

Also be aware that a faster twist also means the sabot has to handle the greater stress of the greater twisting force. A copper bullet jacket is much harder than a piece of plastic, and therefore more resistant to tearing.


.

 

[Bad Karma]

If one was to run a 4140CM steel, fast twist, .45 caliber barrel (1:14" to 1:18"), with a flat-faced, traditional, flint breech plug that had a 0.500" long thread journal; & with a 1/4"-28 threaded, RMC, AMPCO bronze touch hole liner (socket head allen wrench or screwdriver slotted) that was coned on the inside for fast ignition........

How would that stack up against a snail drum percussion breech plug with its anti-chamber, flash channel, nipple touch hole, and nipple?

Because, that's the only reason I was thinking of the 1:14" twist, .45 caliber 4140CM steel, fast twist barrel that would stabilize those long, high BC, .40 caliber Pittman bullets.

Sending a light blue, Harvester Crush Rib sabot down range with one of those Pittman 250 grain, 1.340" long Accumax bullets from a flintlock. I DO NOT think INSIDE the box. With a moderate charge of fffg black powder, say 70-85 grains.

And, now that there is a .40 caliber CVA Paramount muzzleloading rifle, perhaps Harvester will bring out a Crush Rib sabot in .45 caliber that will handle truly long, super high BC .40 caliber bullets. Like the Pittman Accumax 300 grain that measures 1.480" long. Which require a 1:14" rate of twist.

I’m hearing that the touch hole liner might not hold up under conical bullet pressure. One fella claimed you’ll see a blowtorch out of the right side of the rifle. If you do this, be sure to set up a video camera first!

 

[Matthew323]

Guys compete at Friendship shooting flintlock equipped rifles with barrels that shoot lead conical bullets. I figure that they must be using replaceable touch hole liners. And the only ones that could possibly withstand the heat, and erosion, from the greater breech pressures that lead conical bullets exert are manufactured by RMC from AMPCO bronze material.

Only the uninitiated, fools, and drunks stand next to anyone shooting a flintlock when the trigger is being pulled. Mild powder charges of 50-60 grains of fffg black powder under a 0.445" diameter ball in a .45 caliber rifle will cause an 18" long jet of flame to issue forth from the touch hole once the patched ball starts traveling down the bore.

As to the light blue sabots being paired up with the 225 & 250 grain Pittman Accumax bullets, it's all that I am aware of on the market at the present time for use with these bullets. MtMonkey is the one who told me of his success with both bullets in both his BH209 & his smokeless muzzleloaders.

Since I would have a .45 caliber, LR Customs, MZ REX2 muzzle brake installed on such a barrel, the issue of seating alignment would be nearly eliminated. The T-handle tool was specifically designed by Levi Reed to address alignment issues when seating a bullet.

Last, but not least, my supposition is that touch hole erosion in a .45 caliber, 1:14" twist barrel, shooting the Pittman 250 grain Accumax bullet in a Harvester light blue Crush Rib sabot over approximately 75 grains of fffg Goex black powder.......

SHOULD NOT result in the same amount of erosion to the touch hole as it would had the same barrel been equipped with a percussion snail drum patent breech plug with an AMPCO bronze nipple.

The flintlock breech simply WILL NOT develop as high of breech pressures as the percussion patent breech will.

Therefore, breech pressures, and FOULING in the flint breech should be less. Since this is a fairly new territory for exploration, with not much data known online vis-a-vis flintlock breeches & lead conical bullets, I am only spitballing/speculating here. Until I have a rifle in my hands to actually shoot, that's all my thoughts are is speculating.