Whitetail accuracy...

[flounder]

Some of the very early Armstech (White Rifles) actually used Browning Barrels, some with Micro-Groove rifling. G Series Whitetails/Bisons, SG Series White Lightning, and W Series Super 91's used Wilson Barrels (6 lands and grooves) with a stepped crown. The M97 Whitetails Ultra Mags, and M98 Elite Hunters used Bo Clerke Barrels (7 lands and grooves) with a funnel (funky) crown.

Right at the end, for the last time, they did use some Criterion/Krieger Barrels (very few).

The lions share were Wilson and Bo Clerke. Some of the extremely early and extremely late barrels were like a box of chocolates, you never knew what you were going to get.

would there be any to be "avoided"?

I've never owned or shot a Micro-Groove, so I can't tell you anything other than what I've read on those. The Wilson and Clerke barrels are great shooters. I don't own a Criterion, so can't help you there either.

This White Armstech has the microgroove barrel you are referring to. It is the first White I owned and is an excellent shooter. I'm not sure who the barrel maker was.

 

[1874sharpsshooter]

I now own a M 97 that has a "funnel" shaped crown. Any idea which maker produced this barrel?

Probably the Clerke barrel
Congrats on the new toy

 

[nocomike]

Muzzleloading Technologies Inc. is stamped on the barrel, does this help narrow down the possibilities?

 

[nocomike]

I now own a M 97 that has a "funnel" shaped crown. Any idea which maker produced this barrel?

Probably the Clerke barrel
Congrats on the new toy

Thanks. The Super 91 came home as well. the M97 appears to be near new. The S91 shows signs of use. Barrel is good and just some minor surface rust in a spot or two that should clean up with some elbow grease.

 

[1874sharpsshooter]

You should be all set then . You will really like them Whites . Now go sling some big lead and post your results

 

[1874sharpsshooter]

Muzzleloading Technologies Inc. is stamped on the barrel, does this help narrow down the possibilities?

That would be around 1997 to 2000 time period if I remembered right . Sounds like a Clerke barrel by the way you describe the crown but I thought during that time they were all Criterion. My memory ain't what it used to be .

 

[nocomike]

really looking forward to shooting both and the short and handy feel of the M97 makes me think it would be a perfect mountain/backpack hunting elk killing rig.. Where do I get an application form to join DWB?

 

[1874sharpsshooter]

really looking forward to shooting both and the short and handy feel of the M97 makes me think it would be a perfect mountain/backpack hunting elk killing rig.. Where do I get an application form to join DWB?

Those 2 acquisitions is all it takes . I think everyone will agree that you are welcomed as an official DWB now
Of course there might be a hazing ceremony

 

[nocomike]

really looking forward to shooting both and the short and handy feel of the M97 makes me think it would be a perfect mountain/backpack hunting elk killing rig.. Where do I get an application form to join DWB?

Those 2 acquisitions is all it takes . I think everyone will agree that you are welcomed as an official DWB now
Of course there might be a hazing ceremony

There will likely be plenty of opportunity for that. Now that I own a pair (of Whites :lol: ) I need to learn how to live with them and get the most out of them... So there will probably be many questions to come.

 

[edmehlig]

Which ever White ML you get make sure it's a 451 and not one of them 50 cal Magnums! LOL

 

[edmehlig]

As far as accuracy goes with White's, here are a few targets that I shot with my 451 M97 and M98. I would say White Rifles can shoot pretty accurately once you feed them what they like.

 

[nocomike]

Which ever White ML you get make sure it's a 451 and not one of them 50 cal Magnums! LOL

I am painted into a corner as far as caliber is concerned, since I live and hunt in Colorado, and since elk are my favorite big game to hunt. That means, as I am sure you know, that .45's are out. Silly regulation, to be sure. I admire the groups you fellows manage with your .45's though!

 

[Busta]

Muzzleloading Technologies Inc. is stamped on the barrel, does this help narrow down the possibilities?

Yep.

I now own a M 97 that has a "funnel" shaped crown. Any idea which maker produced this barrel?

Should have 7 lands and grooves, to go with that funnel shaped crown. 99.9% sure it's a Bo Clerke.

The original G Series Whitetail had a barrel that was threaded into the receiver. The MTI and White M97's are a one piece barreled receiver. There is a step between them that will fool you into thinking they are 2 different pieces, but they are not.

Of course, nothing from Armstech, White Muzzleloading Systems, White Shooting Systems, MTI, White Rifles by Muzzleloading Technologies Inc., White Rifles by Split Fire Sporting Goods LLC, or White Rifles LLC is absolute. And don't forget the Doc factor, as anything that has passed back through his hands could be something even the White Rifle Historians have never seen or heard of.

Here is a piece I wrote a year ago from memory, and I've already forgotten some of this information. I've kept up with the White roller coaster from the early 90's, but some of this stuff is fading from my memory bank. Not many people know that Doc designed the W Series rifles way before before Tony Knight designed the MK-85. It was several years later that they went into production. There are actually 60 hand built White Armstech Super 90's (yes Super 90's) out there somewhere, before they started the production Super 91's.

I've owned Whites since the early 90's, followed them a year or two before that, and currently own three. Here are some of the names that White Rifles has been manufactured under at one time or another, in no particular order, but I'll try my best from memory to keep them in order. I might even forget one, or two, but I doubt it? LOL

Doc White was the man that started it all, and even though he did not always own the Companies, he was usually involved in the design of the rifles. He was involved in some capacity, right up until the very end. If there is an end? He still puts together some custom rifles, from parts and pieces he has acquired over the years. I don't think it ever ends.

This below is not historically correct, just pulled from my best memory, and I have CRS if that tells you anything. So don't crucify me if I have something out of order, wrong company names, or the wrong years next to ownership. This is my best recollection of how things went down. If I get anything wrong, please speak up and point it out.


Green River Rifle Works 1972

White Armstech 1990-1992ish (60 hand built Super 90's, then in 1991 the Super-91's)

White Muzzleloading Systems 1993-1994ish, (W-Series Super 91's, G Series Whitetail Hunters, SG-Series White Lightning, Bison, Javalina Pistol)

White Shooting Systems 1995-1996ish (W-Series Super 91's, G Series Whitetail Hunters, White Lightning, Bison, Javalina Pistol, Blacktail Hunter, BG-Series Tominator/White Thunder 12 ga.)

MTI (Muzzleloading Technologies Incorporated) 1997-1998ish (M-97 Whitetail Hunter, M-97 Blacktail Hunter)

White Rifles by Muzzleloading Technologies Incorporated 1998-1999ish (M-98 Elite)

White Rifles by Splitfire Sporting Goods 2000-2002ish (M-00 Blacktail Hunter, Odyssey, Adventurer, Ultra-Mag)

White Rifles, LLC 2002- 2003ish, maybe into 2004ish before the plug was officially pulled on manufacture of production rifles. I know in the end it was down to just a couple employees.

Steve Brown, the last owner still has a site, and did still sell replacement parts, bullets, etc,. He may still do it, but I don't know for sure.


Some of the models over the years.

W-Series Super-91
W-Series Super Safari (Full Stock)
G-Series Whitetail Hunter (also 500 Roger Raglin Signature models w/White (by Lyman) peep sights)
G-Series Blacktail Hunter (teflon coated)
G-Series Bison (heavy barrel, blued)
G-Series Odyssey (Christensen carbon fiber wrapped barrel)
SG-Series White Lightning (.504 only)
BG-Series White Thunder (12 ga Shotgun)
BG-Series Tominator (12ga Shotgun) (Ray Eye Signature)
Javalina (pistol)
M-97 Whitetail (also offered in a Roger Raglin signature model)
M-97 Blacktail
M-97 Odyssey (24" Carbon Fiber Wrapped Barrel, thumbhole stock)
M-97 Adventurer (26" Stainles Steel Barrel, thumbhole stock)
B97 Thunder
B97 Tominator
M-98 Elite Hunter
M-98 Super Safari (Full Stock)
Thunderbolt (Bolt Action 209 Primer)
M-97 Ultra-Mag (Sportsmans Warehouse exclusive)
M-00 (2000) Blacktail Hunter
Super-91 II (Doc's Special Edition Signature Model)
Hundreds of different custom builds from Doc over the years.

I know I am forgetting at least one other odd-ball model of inline, but can't remember it right now. There were also some sidelock Sporting Rifles over the years too. Doc built a few rifles in .367 caliber for the White Shooting Team, and won the Nationals in 2006. I think it was his last ditch effort to secure a buyer, but so far there have been no takers.

I have owned a White since about 94-95, but not until I drooled over them for a few years, and picked up a couple more along the way.

That might be a bit more than you asked for, but it was a fun ride while it lasted.

I forgot the Alpha, the one they never built.

http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com ... ting-goods

 

[Underclocked]

Of all the Whites I've owned, my favorite has been the Model 97 UltraMag since the first time I shot it. Bo Clerke barrel (funky crown), better synthetic stock, 26" barrel, easy to handle and operate... and a tack driver. Super 91 models came and went, a Thunderbolt would have been sent to hell if it had been practical, and a few other model 97 rifles along the way... now only that UltraMag remains in my cabinet. The Super 91 is the most elegant looking of all the Whites in my opinion but it is not as user friendly for arthritic hands as are the Whitetail designs. All can be great shooters, even the Blunderblot.

 

[nocomike]

I now own a M 97 that has a "funnel" shaped crown. Any idea which maker produced this barrel?

and I only counting 6 lands/grooves... any guesses?

 

[nocomike]

so, a 10 digit/letter serial number and a funnel crown with 6 lands and grooves. I guess the most important thing at this point is that the rifle appears to be in very good condition, showing little if any signs of use. Still, I would like to know as much as possible about this particular rifle and the origin of the barrel. Any thoughts with this information?

 

[nocomike]

I sent an email to Doc asking about the barrel on the M97 I just acquired...

Doc,

I am looking at a M 97, stainless, made by MTI. It has a funnel shaped crown and 6 lands/grooves. My research is conflicting with regard to which barrel maker produced this particular barrel. Clerke barrels have 7 lands/grooves with a funnel crown, or so I am told. Have you any idea who made this barrel?

Thanks,
Mike

Criterion, best there were, all 97 barrels are Criterion. Doc

Doc White Sent from my iPad

 

[Redclub]

Of all the Whites I've owned, my favorite has been the Model 97 UltraMag since the first time I shot it. Bo Clerke barrel (funky crown), better synthetic stock, 26" barrel, easy to handle and operate... and a tack driver. Super 91 models came and went, a Thunderbolt would have been sent to hell if it had been practical, and a few other model 97 rifles along the way... now only that UltraMag remains in my cabinet. The Super 91 is the most elegant looking of all the Whites in my opinion but it is not as user friendly for arthritic hands as are the Whitetail designs. All can be great shooters, even the Blunderblot.

I agree with UC,sometimes He knows what He is talking about. Elk hunting U-M 504 cannot be beat

 

[1874sharpsshooter]

Muzzleloading Technologies Inc. is stamped on the barrel, does this help narrow down the possibilities?

That would be around 1997 to 2000 time period if I remembered right . Sounds like a Clerke barrel by the way you describe the crown but I thought during that time they were all Criterion. My memory ain't what it used to be .

I feel somewhat vindicated by doc reply

 

[Busta]

I sent an email to Doc asking about the barrel on the M97 I just acquired...

Doc,

I am looking at a M 97, stainless, made by MTI. It has a funnel shaped crown and 6 lands/grooves. My research is conflicting with regard to which barrel maker produced this particular barrel. Clerke barrels have 7 lands/grooves with a funnel crown, or so I am told. Have you any idea who made this barrel?

Thanks,
Mike

Criterion, best there were, all 97 barrels are Criterion. Doc

Doc White Sent from my iPad

Thanks for that information.

Not saying Doc is wrong here, but that isn't what MTI/White was telling us for years back in the late 90's. So, that begs the questions, who made the barrels with 7 lands and grooves in the .451 M97 & M98? What rifles had the Bo Clerke Barrels on them? The 7 lands and grooves were a selling point in their advertising back then. I had over a half dozen dealers within an hour and fifteen minute drive back then and they had the same information.

Sorry if I gave you bad information, it wasn't intentional. My White Rifles .451 M98 absolutely has 7 lands and grooves with the funnel crown made by MTI.


Who has a .451 or .504 M97 with 7 lands and grooves? How many lands and grooves are in the .504 Ultra-Mag?

The thing you have to understand about all the White companies over the years is, that a lot of them lost their arse due to poor business management, and this left some of their vendors holding the bag. This would include several barrel companies. Companies machining bolt parts, breech plugs, recoil lugs, under ribs, ram rod thimbles/ferrules, and receiver parts. They used Williams, Lyman, and Marble Arms (Tru Glo) Sights, Warne bases and rings, Bold Triggers, Bell & Carlson stocks, recoil pads.

This is why there are so many different parts on so many different rifles. Some of those parts ended up going to the new White Company, some of them Doc ended up with, and some of them were sold by the vendors to White owners. Some bridges were burned over the years as well. That is why nothing on any White Rifle Model is absolute. Just when you think you are getting it figured out, you get another curve ball. I've been following them since 1991, so I've seen a lot of curve balls over the years. This barrel mystery has to rank at or near the top if the heap.

So, anyone with a .410, .451, .504 M97 or M98, let us know what brand name (MTI, White Rifles), type of crown, and how many lands & grooves your barrel has? Thanks for any replies.