Why I still like 777 over Real Black

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209s with Triple 7 is a Recipe for a NASTY Crud Ring. My problem came from my DRY Paper Patch Bullets, No lube of any kind, Just slide the DRY Paper Patched Bullet down and Fire, The Crud ring was HARSH here! Like i said, i had to back up with my Range Rod and Ram in to it, and instead of using a “Moist” Patch, i used Dripping wet Saturated Patches, Then Several Dry Patches. Accuracy was AWESOME, But the Crud Ring was HORRID to work with
 
please no one take offense to this but i started shooting muzzleloaders in 1971, and black powder cartridge in 1991.
when i here you guys say you only get 4 or 5 shots and have to clean??? with the right lube and good clean barrel i could shoot the 54 cal gun i had 40-50 shots and never clean it. i only use lubes that contain no and im going to repeat this no petroleum oils or additives in it, especially black powder, and on cartridge guns same same i usually shoot a whole match without cleaning it-but- i use a blow tube it softens up the residue immediately. i seat my bullets with the top driving band out of the case. never had a problem inserting a cartridge whether it was the second one or the sixtieth one. that 54 cal rifle never had anything in it but natural lube and was cleaned with the green stuff and then stored with natural lube in the bore. wish i still had it LOL how many times have you heard that??
i shoot 3 different muzzleloaders now- one is a smokeless muzzleloader and the other 2 are white muzzleloaders
they are a super 91 in 410 cal and a thunderbolt in 451 cal and they never need to be cleaned during a shooting session. but the super 91 loves T7 and does it ever make a crud ring at the breech plug. so i wrap the breech plug with plumbers teflon tape and a bead of super lube around the edge of the breech plug. no more problems. with 60 grs of T7 under a wonder wad (lubed)and a seaco 410 gr bullet with white lube it shoots into 3/4"{ groups all day long soo its what ill be using in it. so anyway my experience with the crud ring and black powder leftovers .
SB
 
I tried 777 in my TC Impact inline and the crud ring was terrible...2 shots max and then I had to pound the rod through the crud ring. This was with the pellets, so maybe the loose 777 would be different, but I hated the stuff. The same rifle shoots 1 1/2" groups at 100 yards with 70 to 100 grains of Pyrodex RS with no crud ring. I could not get it to group with 3f black worth a hoot. On the other hand my TC Hawken groups great with 3f black, but won't stay on an 8 1/2x11 sheet of paper at 50 yards with Pyrodex.

Rifles are like people, I guess. They all have their individual quirks. Front loaders may have more quirks than cartridge guns to boot, which is part of the fun/challenge of muzzleloaders.
 
This was just firing 209 primers through an empty bore. Its the primers that are super hot and causing the carbon build up. The powder residue just makes the matters worse.
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FrontierGander, your right in most muzzleloader loadings we dont need the power and heat of a 209 primer. you usually can get the bewst accuracy with the lightest primer you can find to use. i found in my ruger no. 1 smokeless muzzleloader 45 cal that a winchester 209 primer could push a 200 grain sst in sabot with wonder wad and 73 grs by weight of inert powder 2 inches up the barrel thats a heavy load moved quite a way by just the primer!!! T7 is a suger based propellant so the higher the pressure the worse it gets.
SB
 
"However. if you use them you're giving up on the whole idea of being a traditional muzzleloader."
Well, I wouldn't say that really. I don't think anybody really cares or did care what the powder was made of. You pour it out of a horn into an antler measure down the bore of a (probably) milled steel barrel and set it off with a rock lock or a cap. Who's gonna ask what kind it was and ask you to leave if it's not charcoal? Kinda defeats the purpose eh? We nt more shooters, not less. It's all just GUNPOWDER
I only use black as I mostly shoot flint gun and try to stay as close as I can the way GGGGrand Paw would have done it, however I have heard guys in other states having a hard time getting BP. I know one group that banded together and ordered a case from Graf & Son. to save $.
 
Yes, modern sub powders will be better than real black. That's the whole point of making them.

However. if you use them you're giving up on the whole idea of being a traditional muzzleloader.
Agree, I try to keep the whole operation as close as i can to when the firearm was was originally used, I don't use petroleum anything on my ML's, use mixture of bear grease, bees wax, sweet oil (olive oil) and use the olive oil and wax on the wood. Hot water and a little soap is all I use to clean, even my Colt 60 conversions and the 73 I used (BP) in SASS. Just me and the way I do it, others methods and reasons may vary.......
 
I used to use pyrodex in my percussion guns back in the 1970s, and if I recall correctly, it worked fine. But even then I was fastidious in my cleaning regimen. I recall being able to shoot at least a half dozen times without having to clear the bore of my Zouave.

I can shoot my flintlocks all day with FF Goex blackpowder. The trick is to use enough lube and a tight enough patch ball combination.
I have never tried subs in my flintlocks, but have heard from those that have tried that ignition is terrible with any of them. I have also read warnings from barrel makers about horror stories of pyrodex and how much more corrosive it is to a bore than original black. Its imperative that if you use pyrodex that you clean your gun thoroughly and very soon after your shooting session.
 
I have also read warnings from barrel makers about horror stories of pyrodex and how much more corrosive it is to a bore than original black.
WHAT?!? Pyrodex is LESS corrosive than "real" black!
Unlike "real" black powder Pyrodex contains no saltpeter/potasium nitrate. (and no mercury chlorinate as was used in corrosive primers.)

Them telling those "horror stories" know not of which they speak.
Hence they have less than zero credibility as far as I am concerned.
 
I've always used black powder since I started in the mid 1960s. I like the smoke, smell and performance of the real stuff. I shoot mostly flintlocks and capguns only occasionally. I like both, however. BP's been used for at least a thousand years and I like it.

Black powder is NOT corrosive nor does it attract moisture to any noticeable degree. BP fouling is hygroscopic so does attract moisture. This is why cleaning is so necessary after shooting it. Those in arid climates can get away with waiting a few days before they clean. Down in humid Georgia I experienced no corrosion when I sometimes waited until the next day to clean the gun. And I've gotten spectacular accuracy with BP in the .45 Colt and .357 mag.
 
Pyrodex has its lovers and its haters. If you search out the opinions they are about 50/50. There is evidence of a danger of etching your bore if you don't take special care to clean out Pyrodex residue, and if you leave your gun too long fouled with blackpowder, you can get rust and pitting as well because burnt blackpowder is very hydroscopic, meaning it draws moisture to itself and the salts are not good for metals. Yes, there are plenty of folks that "poo poo" the very idea that Pyrodex is not the bees knees, because they love Pyrodex for whatever reason. There is exactly no benefit for me to use ANY substitute as none of them work well with a flintlock ignition. I do know for a fact that Black Powder DOES work quite well in both percussion and flint and has done so in the case of flint, for about 400 years. BP can be hard to find locally. It is available in multiple places online, and is readily available at local events. Blackpowder is easy to clean--often easier than smokeless in my experience. Its just dirty and smelly and then there is the issue of using water in your bore that scares folk who are not as experienced in the hobby. If you like Pyrodex or 777 or any of the others and they work for ya, then good on you, and good for the makers of substitute powders. I'd use it too if it would work because truthfully, yes, it is easily available right off the shelf. For me, the only practical and viable choice is blackpowder. So that is what I use.
 
I’ve used both substitutes and real BP with satisfactory results
It’s personal preference. Do you want sugar or sweet and low in your coffee? That’s my take.....
 
Yup, to each his own. There is good and bad about anything. That's what is great about this Country(so far), your opinion on anything is just that - "your opinion".
 
Pyrodex has its lovers and its haters. If you search out the opinions they are about 50/50. There is evidence of a danger of etching your bore if you don't take special care to clean out Pyrodex residue, and if you leave your gun too long fouled with blackpowder, you can get rust and pitting as well because burnt blackpowder is very hydroscopic, meaning it draws moisture to itself and the salts are not good for metals. Yes, there are plenty of folks that "poo poo" the very idea that Pyrodex is not the bees knees, because they love Pyrodex for whatever reason. There is exactly no benefit for me to use ANY substitute as none of them work well with a flintlock ignition. I do know for a fact that Black Powder DOES work quite well in both percussion and flint and has done so in the case of flint, for about 400 years. BP can be hard to find locally. It is available in multiple places online, and is readily available at local events. Blackpowder is easy to clean--often easier than smokeless in my experience. Its just dirty and smelly and then there is the issue of using water in your bore that scares folk who are not as experienced in the hobby. If you like Pyrodex or 777 or any of the others and they work for ya, then good on you, and good for the makers of substitute powders. I'd use it too if it would work because truthfully, yes, it is easily available right off the shelf. For me, the only practical and viable choice is blackpowder. So that is what I use.
I have been using Triple Seven for years, FFFG. Works great for me. I prefer loose powder over those pellet type of powder.
 
It's funny that you'd use reference of sugar with 777 inasmuch as it's glucose based for it's carbon contribution. Hence it's 'crud ring' at the edge of it's load level.
It is still my preferred propellant in my 209 systems.
Strong ignition 💥
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I know, the thread is about the powder, not the gun but man that is one fancy BP carbine! That wood! It's no more effort to make a stock from fancy wood as a plain one. A little denser perhaps but the WOW factor makes it worth it. Must not have much "shove" to it with no r pad. My only TCs were a very early Hornet then two 45LC/410s with the screw in choke. Out here
 
^^^Perfect proof that we all prefer different things.
To my eye that is quite possibly the most unattractive gun I've ever laid eyes on, next to maybe an H&A underhammer.
 
It is disproportionate in it's appearance due to the 16" barrel but the rear furniture was handcrafted by me from a slab of burly maple. It has a more typical look with my 20" barrel in place. The forearm's design was from Gonic Arms, the barrels maker. Attached is the stock during process. 20191019_142612.jpg
 

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