Why witness marks are a requirement

[BP Addict]

Would a double load of 150 grains (300 grains) do that? It almost looks like it had Smokeless in it.

I use a Stainless Steel Bench rod at the range. I mark it loaded and unloaded with a Black Sharpie. The rod under my In-line barrel is black so I'd probably use a silver or gold-colored Sharpie instead. I'm not a big fan of cutting notches in ramrods. The ink cleans off with 91% Isopropyl Alcohol so if you use it for different guns, you start fresh every time.

I've also seen folks mark them with a strip of (3/4" - 1") Blue Painters Tape.

Witness marks are more effective at the range where people talking to you can be a distraction. We had a guy at our last match with two 80-grain loads (PRB & Powder) in his gun! I don't think his bench rod is marked. Thank God, it didn't go off and both loads were pulled.

This subject is something we'll need to address before the next one.

Walt

 

[rangerod]

I do it without fail
also I don't have a separate range rod for that reason
the gun mounted ram rod is what I use in the field and what I use on my range so the witness mark is always the same
the only changes are made when I use different shaped bullets so the witness mark is going to move a bit

That's the best way we do it. Kudos.

 

[bronko220002]

Pretty hard to believe that was caused by an unseated bullet. I'd be more inclined to believe it was smokeless. But still witness marks would identify a double charge

 

[BP Addict]

But you also have to remove the rod after loading, too. Ive seen a few pics and vids, and actually been witness to, shooters leaving a bore sighter or range rod in their barrel.

I still "Dry Ball", mostly from people talking to me while I'm loading. That's why "Witness Marks" are so important.

Shooting my ramrod is still a YET! I've gotten close a couple of times. I've seen the pieces from others doing it. Ain't pretty!

We have a couple of photos at the Gun Range of rifles fired with the Laser Bore Sighter still in it. Easy way to destroy a gun and lose some body parts!

Walt

 

[rangerod]

I still "Dry Ball", mostly from people talking to me while I'm loading. That's why "Witness Marks" are so important.

Shooting my ramrod is still a YET! I've gotten close a couple of times. I've seen the pieces from others doing it. Ain't pretty!

We have a couple of photos at the Gun Range of rifles fired with the Laser Bore Sighter still in it. Easy way to destroy a gun and lose some body parts!

Walt

And there in lies the danger. Distractions at the range usually from another shooter or someone with you. Interruptions because of shooters downrange checking targets. I've seen it first hand.

 

[smokepolehall]

Double load does not usually do that. My guess is he put smokeless powder into a blk. powder rifle

 

[Confederate rifleman]

Said it before. Conversating while loading is like a boomerang enthusiast with a.d.d.
If that was a smokeless charge that was short rammed, would it even have gone off? I've no experience with smokeless muzzleloaders, but hearing about even BH209's ignition requirements, I think load compression has to be important.

 

[Bphunter1974]

I always use a couple wraps of silver duct tape. I've had marks from markers rub off.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

I have been just putting on a piece of tape to indicate an empty bore. Anything showing below the tape lets me know there is something in there.

 

[rangerod]

Said it before. Conversating while loading is like a boomerang enthusiast with a.d.d.
If that was a smokeless charge that was short rammed, would it even have gone off? I've no experience with smokeless muzzleloaders, but hearing about even BH209's ignition requirements, I think load compression has to be important.

How right you are. I posed this question to Western Powders concerning compression. They said use enough pressure to pack it tightly.You can't overpack because of the cylindrical shape of the grains.They won't crush.
This is just BlackHorn.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

How right you are. I posed this question to Western Powders concerning compression. They said use enough pressure to pack it tightly.You can't overpack because of the cylindrical shape of the grains.They won't crush.
This is just BlackHorn.

and packing it makes a big difference in accuracy… at least for me.

 

[ENCORE50A]

and packing it makes a big difference in accuracy… at least for me.

You sure its not loading force?

 

[michiganmuzzy]

You sure its not loading force?

Not sure, but I lean pretty heavily on the rod when i load bh now. I used to just seat the bullet and shoot. Ive also tried giving the ramrod three hard smacks after seating. I dont want to damage to bullet tho. Either they both work well or im just getting to be a better shot(unlikely).

 

[ENCORE50A]

Can't show a witness mark because the rifle isn't loaded but, this is how they're marked.
I use painters tape and it works quite well for me. Because I never know WHAT I'll be shooting, rather it be a Fury, XLD, Acumax, or rather it will be BH or SML, I have more than one rod. I never know rather I'll be using the brake or not too. My hunting ramrod from Arrowhead never gets changed.
If I change from 120grs VOLUME of BH, then the rod gets marked on the first loading.



Never dry balled in my life until I was shooting the BP Xpress, and that is a SOB to pull a Barnes from. Did it twice. Once with a Barnes, once with a SST.

However................. While shooting ALONE here at home, my witness mark saved my rear end. Loaded it and immediately knew I had screwed up.
YUP, DOUBLE CHARGE and two bullets!
One would think it would be an easy fix, just pull the breech plug and push everything out. HA HA HA!!!! BS. It wasn't coming out. What's a guy to do? Call the builder

In just a couple days, I had a new breech plug arrive to help remove the obstruction. Let me tell you something......... be prepared to work your ask off! I had to use a bar with the grease gun and had one hose rupture and had to buy a new one.
Hydraulic pressure would remove it but, what a job! Makes you think..........................

 

[ENCORE50A]

Not sure, but I lean pretty heavily on the rod when i load bh now. I used to just seat the bullet and shoot. Ive also tried giving the ramrod three hard smacks after seating. I dont want to damage to bullet tho. Either they both work well or im just getting to be a better shot(unlikely).

If you check out the testing again that I did, its likely due to loading force vs pressure on the propellant ????

 

[ElDiablo]

If you check out the testing again that I did, its likely due to loading force vs pressure on the propellant ????

Why don’t you post the link(s) to your testing so we can all refresh our memories.

 

[ENCORE50A]

Why don’t you post the link(s) to your testing so we can all refresh our memories.

I'll go look........... Is there a limit to consistency?

 

[ElDiablo]

Ahh yes, I recall that thread. Any data on seating pressure.

 

[ENCORE50A]

Ahh yes, I recall that thread. Any data on seating pressure.

Sorry none on seating. Unless it was when shooting the BP Xpress and pellets, I always used to use two hands and thump the bullet on the charge. More habit than anything else. I did check it one time and it ran at 106#. Two handed thump. Shooting saboted bullets though.

I do know that BH will ignite and go BOOM if you have a wad on top and forget to load a bullet. Not me, but it happened at the Camp Atterbury long range match. There was a difference in the BOOM though. Both Chris and I both recognized it.

It wouldn't be hard to test the bullet to propellant forces for accuracy. Testing for that would be better with two people. One loading and using the force gauge and the other doing all the shooting and not knowing which pressure was which.

Because of the burn characteristics of BH and how bullet loading force itself affects velocity, it might be hard to get an accurate result just from seating forces. I'm not sure.....

 

[ElDiablo]

I think it’s easy to draw conclusions based on limited (statistically invalid) data or anecdotal evidence. I like little snippets of data and stories as much as the next guy - but I am hesitant to come to any broad conclusions. Too many variable in-play with internal and external ballistics.

That’s interesting that a load of BH209 went off without a bullet. I’ve recently done some limited testing and was unable to get it to ignite with anything short of a bullet.