Wierd, any ideas?

[Tweesdad]

Hi Guys
Yesterday I was in the field looking for a deer to invite home for dinner. I had just loaded my gun, with my standard load of pyrodex P, and a winchester 777 primer.
Saw deer, pulled trigger, primer fired, gun did not go off. Buddy standing alongside me shot deer.
Now, this is what I think is wierd. When I checked the gun, the primer had indeed fired, and the bullet had been moved about 14" off the powder charge. How the heck can a primer release enough hot gas to move a seated T/C Maxi-Ball 14" down the barrel, and not set off the powder charge? The gun was loaded not more than 1 hour before I attempted to fire it, and the barrel was clean, dry, and the touch hole was clear. 2 hours later, saw another deer, and gun fired flawlessly. Deer was DRT. All I had done was re-seat the bullet and replace the primer.
Any ideas?

 

[guitarpicva]

Guessing, but enough primer to push the bullet, but not enough to ignite the pellets?

I had the same thing-ish with loose BH209 and a weak primer. Didn't move the bullet, but the next primer fired with no issue. When I cleaned the gun later after a day of hunting, the breech plug was a mess, but it had to be a weak primer in my case.

 

[Tweesdad]

Guitarpic
This was not a pellet load, but 100 gr. of Pyrodex P loose powder. Your idea of a weak primer is where I was going, but I can't understand how the bullet was moved about 14", and the charge didn't fire.
Like I said, weird.

 

[cayuga]

I would guess it was a weak primer or the powder was somehow compromised. If you rest the maxiball and then tried again, did it fire normal? If it did, then I would suspect the primer for sure. If the rifle did not fire correctly, then I might suspect the powder charge somehow got contaminated. Acting in turn like a wad. That is a strange thing.

Once when checking the fire channel on a empty muzzleloader. I did as normal, pushed a tight fitting patch to the bottom of the breech and popped a Remington STS primer through it. It moved that heavy stainless steel ramrod almost six inches off the breech plug. I was impressed. So a primer has a lot more power then you think.

 

[Semisane]

That's a real mystery Tweesdad. Pyrodex P is easily ignited even with #11 caps. It just doesn't seem possible if the bore was indeed dry and oil free. Because the only explanation I can come up with would be contamination of the base of the powder charge with oil or dampness.

 

[JStanley]

I'll jump on the defective primer bandwagon too. I think Pyro needs somewhere in the neighborhood of 700 deg F to ignite properly. Maybe for some reason the primer didn't develop the temp needed but had enough pressure to scoot your MaxiBall. :huh?:

 

[BPHunter]

Either the powder didn't make it into the bolster, or there was an obstruction between the nipple and powder. Before a hunt, i always run a patch to the bottom and fire 2 caps. If the ramrod bumps and the patch comes out black, i'm 100% sure it's going to fire with a load. There's been more than 1 occasion when this test failed because there was drop of lube or patch fragment where it did't belong. Also, I'm sure you already know, but you should tap this side of any sidelock with your palm a couple times to jostle some powder into the bolster, before seating the bullet.

 

[Widude]

It only takes a minute or two, but back when I was shooting my side-lock I would take the nipple off & put a few grains of powder in then put the nipple back in place. This was to ensure powder was right under the clear & clean nipple channel. You can do it after you 'charge' the gun.

Did I do this for the range, no. This is for that one important shot whilst hunting.

 

[JStanley]

and a winchester 777 primer.

What type of side lock can use a Win T7 primer? Are there side locks out there that can use 209 primers?

 

[guitarpicva]

Guitarpic
This was not a pellet load, but 100 gr. of Pyrodex P loose powder....

Those are pellets...just really, really, really SMALL pellets!

 

[Tweesdad]

and a winchester 777 primer.

What type of side lock can use a Win T7 primer? Are there side locks out there that can use 209 primers?

I have a T/C Renegade on which I have installed a Hubbard Mag-Spark which replaces the nipple and accepts 209 primers. The funny thing is, I put the Mag-Spark on the gun with the intention of greatly reducing the possibility of a misfire. Man plans, God laughs.

 

[BPHunter]

I owned a Renegade for a while and I remember having several misfires I couldn't explain. I did resort to pulling the nipple and adding powder on a couple of occasions. I eventually got tired of the low drop in the stock (kept smacking me in face! :cry: ) and traded it off. I liked the build quality, but they were kinda quirky.

 

[Tweesdad]

I owned a Renegade for a while and I remember having several misfires I couldn't explain. I did resort to pulling the nipple and adding powder on a couple of occasions. I eventually got tired of the low drop in the stock (kept smacking me in face! :cry: ) and traded it off. I liked the build quality, but they were kinda quirky.

For whatever it's worth, this is the first mis-fire I have had since putting on a Mag-Spark Conversion Unit for the 209 primer over 3 years ago. Must have put about 150 rounds a year through it since I put it on. Thats about 450 rounds without a hitch. I am almost positive that I had a bum primer.
Whatever, got a deer a couple of hours later. All's well that ends well.

 

[BPHunter]

At least your problem was solvable. I pull the trigger, the gun goes off, but no elk in the freezer! in my case the problem is the nut behind the trigger.

 

[ebiggs1]

I suspect the two issues, FTF and bullet mover are unrelated and a coincidence. You had a bad primer and the projectile moved from the powder charge because it wasn't seated or got upset by something else.

 

[Tweesdad]

I suspect the two issues, FTF and bullet mover are unrelated and a coincidence. You had a bad primer and the projectile moved from the powder charge because it wasn't seated or got upset by something else.

Negative. As I said, I had just loaded the rifle. The bullet was properly seated before I dropped the hammer. All movement of the slug took place when the primer kinda, sorta fired.

 

[ebiggs1]

It can't half fire? :shock:

 

[Dwayne]

It can't half fire? :shock:

Don't be so quick to say no to this!

This CAN, and WILL happen with Nitro-based powders.

If there is not enough containment when primer is fired, you can get a "Partial" burn on the powder. Just enough to move your conical, but not enough to complete a burn.

Sometimes the Conical will be in the barrel, other times it may end up 15 feet in front of your barrel.

Either way, if you check the powder in the barrel, you will find it was partially burnt, and some of it will be ok.

 

[ebiggs1]

I have never experienced such a situation with either smoke-less or black powder, so I am still going to be skeptical.
But I have heard of barrels being too short to completely burn all the powder while still in the barrel.
But the powder does still completely burn. I have set up several tests to prove this and posted one on another forum. Half burnt powder? I don't know? That?s a tough one to swallow. Especially with the projectile still in the barrel.

 

[Tweesdad]

As a final note:
I am reasonably certain that none of the powder burned. All I did was reseat the bullet, put on another primer, and shoot the next deer I saw. Spoke to a local blk. pwdr. smith, and he felt that it was a bad primer. Not enough compound to generate enough heat to light the powder, but enough to generate enough gas to move the bullet.
Well, whatever caused it will remain a mystery. I wish I had saved the primer to return to Win. and get their opinion as to what had happened.
Thanks for all the assistance.