Your Thoughts?

[phenix78_99]

Was just experimenting today and decided to play around with some things on my Accura. I decided to play around with my load, and came up with one consisting of 110 grains of BH209 load, a 220 grain Bloodline, a Harvester Crush Rib Sabot for .458 bullets (https://www.harvestermuzzleloading....-crushed-rib-sabot-for-458-bullet-pack-qty-50 ), and a Federal 209A primer. I usually shoot a Winchester W209 primer, and have no shims on the firing pin bushing, as I don''t have any blowback until I am few+ rounds into a shot string. Anyway, with the Fed 209A I am using 0.012" worth of shims to get a 0.002" to 0.003" crush on a 0.295" and 0.0296" primer, which a majority of the Fed 209A primers measured.

Well, when I shot, I got the results posted below in the pics. My biggest concern is the primer and the blowback I got from it. If you look at the pic of the business end of the primer, there is some sort of strand left in the primer. You can't see it that well, but the primer was also extremely sooty, and it was just the first shot. The face of the primer cup has the imprint of the firing pin bushing in it, which you can see in one of the pics. I didn't take a pic of it, but the face of the firing pin bushing and frame were sooty as well.

Of special note, the petals of the sabot sheered off, which is not that big of a deal, I guess.

I am curious to hear your thoughts on how things got so messy with the crush I had on a first shot using a clean, Western 209 breech plug. Nothing was plugged up, and I had I don't have this issue on the first shot with no shims, no crush, and a W209 primer.

By the way, please understand that an o-ring in the primer pocket is not an option, because even with a 0.294" primer and no shims on the firing pin bushing, I can only close the action, and cannot cock the hammer of the rifle. So, please don't suggest this option.

 

[HC]

How did the following shots look?

 

[sabotloader]

You are right the petals coming off is really no big deal at. The do not come off until after separation of the sabot from the bullet.

 

[Travis299]

Is your firing pin bushing exactly flush with the receiver or does it protrude somewhat? Also if you close the action on a primer and then open & inspect the primer face is the bushing mark there?

 

[MSalyards]

What did the target say? How did it shoot?

 

[phenix78_99]

How did the following shots look?

I was only planning on shooting one shot with this one because I was shooting at some water jugs to see how many jugs the 220 grain Bloodline would penetrate with the 110 grains of BH209. As luck would have it, the base of the bullet exited the side of the fourth of 6 jugs, never to be recovered. I was also so disgusted with the blowback, I just broke the rifle down and cleaned it.

 

[phenix78_99]

You are right the petals coming off is really no big deal at. The do not come off until after separation of the sabot from the bullet.

Yeah, I have not noticed a difference in groups between loads whose sabots shed petals and those whose don’t.

 

[phenix78_99]

Is your firing pin bushing exactly flush with the receiver or does it protrude somewhat? Also if you close the action on a primer and then open & inspect the primer face is the bushing mark there?

It is protruding just a hair, and I can see the bushing marks on the metal around the primer cup, but not the cup itself. However, you can see the bushing marks on the cup of the fired primer in the photos of the Fed 209A primers.

 

[phenix78_99]

What did the target say? How did it shoot?

I was shooting at a line of water jugs, and the front jug flew about 15 feet from the point of impact. It testified to the power of the Bloodline.

 

[MrTom]

If you look at the pic of the business end of the primer, there is some sort of strand left in the primer.... The face of the primer cup has the imprint of the firing pin bushing in it, which you can see in one of the pics.

That piece left in the primer is the anvil, a normal thing to see.

I'd more concerned about the way the primer cup is distorted though. In a gun shooting within normal pressures that primer cup should be about as flat as a pancake and should not have any "flow" around the firing pin punch mark. What I see in the pictured primers is usually indicative of a very high pressure OR something way out of adjustment OR a badly eroded flame hole in the breech plug. I'd be running some pin gauging thru that hole to measure the diameter. Your pictured primer show some high pressure being generated.

You don't mention how you are arriving at the 110 grains of charge. Are you using a quality measure or are you using tubes with imprinted grains on them? The imprinted tubes are horridly inaccurate. Are you weighing the charge, because if you are, at 110 grains you are way over-board using the 209 powder and with a light bullet even you are shooting a monster that will eventually make more grief than what is being shown.

Have you tried a different plug? My Accura and my Optima both shoot clean without any shimming anywhere and both use the Winchester primers from the blue box. Feds and CCI both soot up and I have a mess to clean. I have never heard of a Winchester primer binding and not allowing the gun to be cocked or fired with a factory plug and no shims. I'd start with a new plug and using the Winchester primers and I'd be dialing that charge back to maybe 70 - 80 grains by volume and working upward all the while watching those primers. The second I saw any flow in the primer cup I'd back up to the last clean shooting charge and call that the max. Those bloodlines don't take a cannon charge to get the job done.

 

[ronlaughlin]

In a gun shooting within normal pressures that primer cup should be about as flat as a pancake and should not have any "flow" around the firing pin punch mark

Tom, those primer look 'normal' to me. Your rifles probably have the firing pin bushing with the real tight screwdriver slot. For awhile CVA was shipping rifles with the tight slot in the bushing, but later on the slots became larger, and the primer will flow into the slot even with normal pressure. Most shooters evidently don't own good screwdrivers, and CVA switched to accommodating them.

By the way, please understand that an o-ring in the primer pocket is not an option, because even with a 0.294" primer and no shims on the firing pin bushing, I can only close the action, and cannot cock the hammer of the rifle. So, please don't suggest this option.

Remove shims. 'Snap' the action closed........this may allow the rifle to be cocked.

 

[Tonyencore]

Using a Remington STS primer, you should be able to use the o-ring for sealing. It is a short primer and I haven’t had an issue using it in the Optima, Accura and Apex. It’s an excellent primer.

 

[BuckDoeHunter]

Your primer cup doesn't look normal to me. My 209 primer smokeless muzzleloaders will look somewhat like that when I run higher pressure loads. Is your flash channel clean? I believe a carboned up flash channel (less volume) will put more pressure on a 209 primer. Have you cleaned your flash channel with a drill bit?

 

[phenix78_99]

That piece left in the primer is the anvil, a normal thing to see.

I'd more concerned about the way the primer cup is distorted though. In a gun shooting within normal pressures that primer cup should be about as flat as a pancake and should not have any "flow" around the firing pin punch mark. What I see in the pictured primers is usually indicative of a very high pressure OR something way out of adjustment OR a badly eroded flame hole in the breech plug. I'd be running some pin gauging thru that hole to measure the diameter. Your pictured primer show some high pressure being generated.

You don't mention how you are arriving at the 110 grains of charge. Are you using a quality measure or are you using tubes with imprinted grains on them? The imprinted tubes are horridly inaccurate. Are you weighing the charge, because if you are, at 110 grains you are way over-board using the 209 powder and with a light bullet even you are shooting a monster that will eventually make more grief than what is being shown.

Have you tried a different plug? My Accura and my Optima both shoot clean without any shimming anywhere and both use the Winchester primers from the blue box. Feds and CCI both soot up and I have a mess to clean. I have never heard of a Winchester primer binding and not allowing the gun to be cocked or fired with a factory plug and no shims. I'd start with a new plug and using the Winchester primers and I'd be dialing that charge back to maybe 70 - 80 grains by volume and working upward all the while watching those primers. The second I saw any flow in the primer cup I'd back up to the last clean shooting charge and call that the max. Those bloodlines don't take a cannon charge to get the job done.

I've never seen the anvil like that before, so thanks for the insight. You can't see it that well, but the cup does seem a bit rounded compared to what they look like in the expended W209 primers I have most recently used. I have 118 total shots through the two Western breech plugs I alternate between after each six shot string on the range. Could the flame hole already be eroded? I do need to pick up a pin gauge; do you have any suggestions as to brand, vendor and size? Could something else be causing the pressure that I am unaware of?

I am only using 110 grains by volume, as measured in my T/C U-View. The T/C U-View, as I am sure you already know, does have the grain markings in 5 grain increments. I actually have two of them for consistency purposes, with one set to 100 grains and the other set to 110 grains, just to keep from having to readjust the powder charge and to remain consistent. I don't weigh my charges, and I don't plan on doing so, as the U-View is good enough for me.

I have two different Western plugs and two different CVA 209 plugs; I swapped over from the CVA plug to the Western plug based on the slightly better group when I shot the CVA and Western plugs back to back during one of my first range sessions with this rifle. I also recently ordered a Lehigh 209 breech plug for the CVA. I sent the Lehigh breech plug, and ventliners, off to Robar Industries to have them refinished in NP3 Plus, which is an outstanding finish I have had installed on three firearms (or parts of those firearms) previously. I know it seems silly, but I will not hunt with anything shiny on me or my firearms, and the Lehigh 416 stainlesss steel breech plug is shiny and looks like a mirror in the sun. I don't want to be made by a deer because I have a shiny metal object glinting in the sun as I move into position to take a shot. Anyway, in my opinion, there is/was no better finish out there than NP3 Plus. Well, that said, this week I received the breech plug back from Robar, and I could tell the plug and ventliners had not been finished, and the work invoice noted "No Work Performed." I had no idea what happened, so I called Robar and spoke to Tyler there who told me Robar was going out of business on Friday, 30 August. I WAS SHOCKED. Well, I wished him and his company the best, and began my search to figure out where to get the plug/ventliners finished, since my go to company was no longer in business. In my research, I found https://www.wmdguns.com/firearm-coatings/production-coating-services.html, and decided on the Nitromet finish, which is essentially Nitride, like my CVA Accura V2. I mailed the breech plug and ventliners to them, so we will see what happens. I can;t wait to try them.

That is a long answer just to say no, I have not shot the Fed 209A primers with any other breech plug, yet. I think I am going to wait until I get the Lehigh plug back to try the Fed 209A primers again, just so I am only changing one variable at a time with this load.

I have previously shot the same charge and bullet using the Winchester primers with no shims, and I don't get noticeable blowback until a few+ rounds into the string. The only variables I have changed between that load and what I shot here were the primer change and the addition of the shims. That said, I can assure you I absolutely cannot get the hammer to lock back with a Winchester primer and an o-ring in the primer pocket, even without the shims in place and using either the Western or CVA 209 breech plugs. On Friday night, I swapped out each of the four Western and CVA 209 breech plugs and the two firing pin bushings (one with shims and one without) trying to find a combination that would allow me to use the o-ring and get the hammer cocked. I tried four different primers: Winchester 209 primers, Fiocchi 616 primers, Fed 209A primers, and CCI 209M primers, and none of them would allow the hammer to lock back.

 

[phenix78_99]

Tom, those primer look 'normal' to me. Your rifles probably have the firing pin bushing with the real tight screwdriver slot. For awhile CVA was shipping rifles with the tight slot in the bushing, but later on the slots became larger, and the primer will flow into the slot even with normal pressure. Most shooters evidently don't own good screwdrivers, and CVA switched to accommodating them.






Remove shims. 'Snap' the action closed........this may allow the rifle to be cocked.

I have the firing pin bushing tool from CVA, and I just figured the imprint on the cup was due to the shim headspacing adjustment. Regarding removing the shims, I tried that. I have one firing pin bushing with shims, and one without. On Friday night, I swapped out each of the four Western and CVA 209 breech plugs and the two firing pin bushings (one with shims and one without) trying to find a combination that would allow me to use the o-ring and get the hammer cocked. I tried the Winchester 209 primers, Fiocchi 616 primers, Fed 209A primers, and CCI 209M primers I have, and while all would allow me to close the action with a strong snap, none of them would allow the hammer to charge and lock.

 

[phenix78_99]

Using a Remington STS primer, you should be able to use the o-ring for sealing. It is a short primer and I haven’t had an issue using it in the Optima, Accura and Apex. It’s an excellent primer.

Thank you, I may look into those, although I already have quite the collection of primers: Winchester 209 primers, Fiocchi 616 primers, Fed 209A primers, and CCI 209M primers.

 

[phenix78_99]

Your primer cup doesn't look normal to me. My 209 primer smokeless muzzleloaders will look somewhat like that when I run higher pressure loads. Is your flash channel clean? I believe a carboned up flash channel (less volume) will put more pressure on a 209 primer. Have you cleaned your flash channel with a drill bit?

I've never seen a rounded primer cup like that either. I've seen some primers punched through in my personal/dutypistols though, but I have probably fired over 100,000+ of 9mm/.45/357 Sig rounds over the years. I'm a Glock Armorer as well, so I have seen a lot of pistol issues over the years. I have never seen a rounded primer cup or punch through on any of my personal/duty shotguns or rifles though. It was weird to see.

I am fairly religious about cleaning things, having carried government issued (see lowest bidder) firearms in just about every environment, when not allowed to use my personal firearm(s) in certain locations, and have also heeded read the advice you all give here regarding the importance of keeping that breech plug clean This site has been a treasure trove of muzzleloading information for me!

Anyway, the breech plug was spotless before I shot it, and I only use the pin vise and drill bit that came with my Western 209 plug to clean the flash channel, and torch tip cleaners to (gently) clean the flash hole.

 

[ShawnT]

You an get a pin gauge set from Amazon, fairly reasonably. If you just want to get one or 2 you get get individual pin gauges from McMaster Carr.
Some plugs flash holes start at .028 while Ventliners start about .031. At about .035 they are about worn out.

I got this one.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01ADK0SIU/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Another.
https://www.amazon.com/MC-0-M-011-0...567368713&s=gateway&sprefix=Pin+Guage,aps,133


Individual.
https://www.mcmaster.com/23055a001

 

[phenix78_99]

You an get a pin gauge set from Amazon, fairly reasonably. If you just want to get one or 2 you get get individual pin gauges from McMaster Carr.
Some plugs flash holes start at .028 while Ventliners start about .031. At about .035 they are about worn out.

I got this one.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01ADK0SIU/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Another.
https://www.amazon.com/MC-0-M-011-060-Minus-Tolerance-Pin/dp/B0007Q1PV0/ref=sxin_1_ac_d_pm?ac_md=1-0-VW5kZXIgJDUw-ac_d_pm&crid=7CXH13UF7JFN&keywords=pin+guage+set&pd_rd_i=B0007Q1PV0&pd_rd_r=7cc671f3-027b-48be-8b32-7c76560a80e8&pd_rd_w=W7rcV&pd_rd_wg=dRU9F&pf_rd_p=eeff02d5-070a-45ea-a79e-d591974b877e&pf_rd_r=GH585VWNSZFE70M19TMQ&psc=1&qid=1567368713&s=gateway&sprefix=Pin+Guage,aps,133


Individual.
https://www.mcmaster.com/23055a001

Awesome, thank you! Ordered.

 

[phenix78_99]

The Western breech plug flash hole for the plug I used for this shot measured 0.031".