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I don't know of a builder of SML rifles that would agree with any type of air gap between the propellant and bullet when shooting smokeless propellants.
 
John. I don't think I agree too much with your comments about smokeless rifle cartridges having an air space. It's probable that most factory loaded cartridges do have an air space between powder and bullet, But a lot of cartridges are handloaded with slight compression. I know not all are loaded with compression, but MANY are. And my black powder cartridges in 38-55 want no air space. Old 45 Colt revolvers cylinders blew up when there was an air space between powder and bullets, so I know theres some concern for safety with this issue. Sometimes a filler above the powder is used, or wads. But I do agree that a breech plug designed to stop a bullet at a consistent depth is an idea worth experimenting with. You're the machinist. Go for it. Talk to Ninering about it. He loves this stuff too.
 
Decay said:
John. I don't think I agree too much with your comments about smokeless rifle cartridges having an air space. It's probable that most factory loaded cartridges do have an air space between powder and bullet, But a lot of cartridges are handloaded with slight compression. I know not all are loaded with compression, but MANY are. And my black powder cartridges in 38-55 want no air space. Old 45 Colt revolvers cylinders blew up when there was an air space between powder and bullets, so I know theres some concern for safety with this issue. Sometimes a filler above the powder is used, or wads. But I do agree that a breech plug designed to stop a bullet at a consistent depth is an idea worth experimenting with. You're the machinist. Go for it. Talk to Ninering about it. He loves this stuff too.
Click to expand...
So basically what your saying is that 98/99 percent of all cartridges using smokeless powder have an air gap as hand loaders only acount for roughly 5 percent of ammunition .produced in this country. And only a small percentage of those powders shown in published data recommend compressed loads. Looking back over 35 years of hand loading personally and commercially I can't remember but one or two combinations that were more accurate or velocity stable with compressed loads most ended up wanting
90 to 96 percent fill.
With shipping settlement I'd hypothesis that by the time a cartridge is shot by the end user it's closer to 85 percent volume fill in a case.

Now BLACK POWDER on the other hand SHOULD NEVER EVER BE LOADED WITH AN AIR GAP. WE SHOULD BE CAREFUL WHEN TALKING ABOUT POWDER TO BE VERY CLEAR OF WHAT TYPE WERE TALKING ABOUT.
One has no bearing on the other.. They work totally differently and have to be handled separately
BP Being an explosive event instead of a burning event SML that builds pressure as a secondary event to do its primary job
 
Most experience hand loaders and target shooters I know that are shooting what we would refer to as a compressed load are looking for velocity, and yes sometimes there is an accurate node in a compressed load. However many times those hot compressed loads are hard on brass and do not make near as much sense to me as a load that's between 85 to 95% density that's just what I prefer myself, I do not shoot compressed loads in any of my hand loaded cartridges ppc,br,308 creedmoors Etc. I really think looking at this subject that everyone is right to some degree ,it really depends on the shooters application and what the shooter is looking for, now I asked for it being something to try and a Muzzleloader I mean a slight air gap I cannot speak to that myself what if that little air gap at the base made bullet swell better, again when we hear the word air gap I think all of our hair stand up and we don't quite understand what GA is getting at. Interesting topic I think and I enjoy the different perspectives and input GA makes me think about things I haven't thought about and I like that!!
 
Decay said:
I ordered a $3.00 aluminum stop collar to put on my ramrod. My thinkin is the collar, held in place and easily adjusted by a set screw, will be attached where my witness mark is. After my powder is dumped in and I ram my bullet and sabot down to make contact with the powder, I would set the collar, maybe just .01" further down and presumably this would be giving me uniform and consistent seating compression. I'd fiddle with the .01" increment and let group size dictate what amount of compression is best.
Every time I change bullet or powder charge the set collar would need to be adjusted, so this isn't necessarily great when doing load development, but once my load is determined, then the collar is set.
Does this sound feasible? Would signficant changes in daily temperature, or barrel temperature make this fail? It seems so simple I can't believe I haven't seen or heard of this. Maybe somebody has already proven this idea to be no good.
Click to expand...
Sounds like it should do the job.
Where's the picture??
I actually had some smaller lock collars with set screws that I was going to drill up to 3/8
But found a collet that I could make the stop I did.
It's self contained so nothing for me to forget. I forgot my powder yesterday had to go back to the house to get it so you can see that's an issue for me.....
 
Mnt monkey said:
Most experience hand loaders and target shooters I know that are shooting what we would refer to as a compressed load are looking for velocity, and yes sometimes there is an accurate node in a compressed load. However many times those hot compressed loads are hard on brass and do not make near as much sense to me as a load that's between 85 to 95% density that's just what I prefer myself, I do not shoot compressed loads in any of my hand loaded cartridges ppc,br,308 creedmoors Etc. I really think looking at this subject that everyone is right to some degree ,it really depends on the shooters application and what the shooter is looking for, now I asked for it being something to try and a Muzzleloader I mean a slight air gap I cannot speak to that myself what if that little air gap at the base made bullet swell better, again when we hear the word air gap I think all of our hair stand up and we don't quite understand what GA is getting at. Interesting topic I think and I enjoy the different perspectives and input GA makes me think about things I haven't thought about and I like that!!
Click to expand...
I must admit looking back at my previous post it does look defensive.
Not my intent. Please forgive me if it offended any one..

I look at what were doing in sml as a combustion chamber with a fuel source.
At its simplest analysis.

So having cut my teeth in motor sports and then as a Profesional gunsmith and then as a team shooter in the gun industry having input on gun projects at the developmental and engineering stages I look at things in a much larger scope. I look for patterns and constants.

My thoughts that play out in my mind is how do we solidify and make a constant a well defined combustion chamber.
Like a cartridge has a well defined space that we then fill with varying charges to achieve our goals.slightly changing the volume of powder or seating depth to achieve a constant and efficient burn of the propellant.
In internal combustion it is well know that higher compression in naturally aspirated engines can increase power hp being a measure of the presure being generated in thr combustion chamber on the piston transfered thru out by the crank shaft etc.

So I would hypothesis that increased seating preasure or compressed loads would also increase presure on merits of a stand alone experiment.
This held true in using a wad several times by adding a wad and giving a decompressionable quality to the charge colum gave lower velocities.
Remove the wad with no other changes velocity went back up.
Thr flip side was that SDS were better as a general rule with a wad.
I hypothesis that the wad gave enough cushion to even out the compression shot to shot.
I guess that's why I've focused on the loading snd seat pressures so much because my findings point to that as being important.
So my comment on air gap plays into the cartridge world in that the volume of the case is constant and in the beginning of load development seating depth is constant.
We start typically for saftey somewhere in the 75 to 80 percent fill volume of a given case. So there is always a air gap as we begins our quest.20 to 25 percent air if my math is correct.
A quick glance at 45/70 for original sharps rifle show no compressed loads and a fill of 65 to 70 percent with various smokless powders.
Something else to look at is flame dispercment under the powder colum.
With a compressed load you must burn thru to get to the heart of the colum resulting in a slower burn rate. That will increase velocity its well know in the cartridge world.
Where as a slight decompression allows the primmer preasure to initially move the powder off tge base and gives the flame a less resistive path ti work its way thru the colum creating faster burning and some cases a more efficient and total burn.
I'm not advocating a large space as that could potentially cause a flash over igniting the side of the colum all at once causing a detonation. A bad situation indeed.
So yes Mt monkey decay is not wrong that alot of hand loaders focused on speed will use compressed loads. And will sacrifice top accuracy to get there
I agree that for accuracy most loads end up being far less than compressed.
So it depends solely on your goals and intended purposes as to which way you head.
I personally want a slege hammer that drives like a fine finish hammer.
Finding that pin point accuracy with the speed has been the age old quest for generations and for some is a life long quest.
Ask Roy Weatherby everyone thought he was nuts but now is recognized as the father of speed.
I give my opinions they are that.
 
Ga.Smokey said:
........This held true in using a wad several times by adding a wad and giving a decompressionable quality to the charge colum gave lower velocities.
Remove the wad with no other changes velocity went back up.
Thr flip side was that SDS were better as a general rule with a wad.
I hypothesis that the wad gave enough cushion to even out the compression shot to shot........
Click to expand...
Do you have any veggie wads that you can try?

I've not yet started shooting smokeless, but I found if you double up a veggie wad, it'll increase the velocity by approximately 80fps when shooting BH.
 
ElDiablo said:
I believe it’s important to consider the potential variations in settling of your powder charge from load to load. Since this is the SML forum, for example with IMR 4198, I notice that a 57 grain charge will settle considerably. Here is a comparison of the height of a “poured” 57 gr charge vs a “tapped” (settled) 57 gr charge. My procedure is to lightly tap the barrel 10 times before seating the bullet to attempt to achieve a little more consistency.

View attachment 42833
Click to expand...
Some benchrest shooters
ENCORE50A said:
Do you have any veggie wads that you can try?

I've not yet started shooting smokeless, but I found if you double up a veggie wad, it'll increase the velocity by approximately 80fps when shooting BH.
Click to expand...
I don't have any veggies
My goal is not necessarily to increase velocity.
My goal is to find the most accuracy in a given velocity range
in short and mid range velocity doesn't matter as much as say what your doing at 1000 and beyond.
Velocity might become a factor latter..
 
Ga.Smokey said:
Some benchrest shooters
I don't have any veggies
My goal is not necessarily to increase velocity.
My goal is to find the most accuracy in a given velocity range
in short and mid range velocity doesn't matter as much as say what your doing at 1000 and beyond.
Velocity might become a factor latter..
Click to expand...
I do however like the most velocity I can accurately achieve in almost any hunting situation.
 
I wasn't offended. I just left home for a few hours and wasn't able to carry on the discussion. And I do like long descriptive narratives. Especially if you proofread your typing errors. ( hint : Mark)

I bought the $3.00 aluminum collars off Amazon. I don't have a photo cuz I'm an ignoramus with computers (but I do proofread).

As for my goals with the collar, It's not necessarily to get an increase in velocity by compressing the powder, it's an attempt to get consistency in seating force pressure, which I assume has to give better accuracy. Whether the powder is compressed or not isn't my concern, just that the seating force is consistent without buying an expensive gauge. Maybe a little compression gives that consistency. Hell, I don't know anything yet. The collars haven't even arrived in the mail. I wanna aim for the bullseye and hit it. I want all 5 bullets in a group to hit the same hole. I love 1/4 inch groups. There's not enough recoil with my Paramount to be concerned with, but when I get my Patriot I'm gonna be lookin for a low recoil, i.e. light bullet, low velocity, smokeless, load that shoots the eye off a flys head. I DON'T like the "term minute of deer, 3" group at 100 yds is good enough". Pie plates are not targets. 1/4" dots are! Maybe a little bigger if I use a peep sight. I want the groups that win the postal match, eh!
 
Decay said:
I wasn't offended. I just left home for a few hours and wasn't able to carry on the discussion. And I do like long descriptive narratives. Especially if you proofread your typing errors. ( hint : Mark)

I bought the $3.00 aluminum collars off Amazon. I don't have a photo cuz I'm an ignoramus with computers (but I do proofread).

As for my goals with the collar, It's not necessarily to get an increase in velocity by compressing the powder, it's an attempt to get consistency in seating force pressure, which I assume has to give better accuracy. Whether the powder is compressed or not isn't my concern, just that the seating force is consistent without buying an expensive gauge. Maybe a little compression gives that consistency. Hell, I don't know anything yet. The collars haven't even arrived in the mail. I wanna aim for the bullseye and hit it. I want all 5 bullets in a group to hit the same hole. I love 1/4 inch groups. There's not enough recoil with my Paramount to be concerned with, but when I get my Patriot I'm gonna be lookin for a low recoil, i.e. light bullet, low velocity, smokeless, load that shoots the eye off a flys head. I DON'T like the "term minute of deer, 3" group at 100 yds is good enough". Pie plates are not targets. 1/4" dots are! Maybe a little bigger if I use a peep sight. I want the groups that win the postal match, eh!
Click to expand...
That's what the discussion is all about
I'm very passionate about firearms and there minutia.
Proof reading well I try but that passion gets in the way.
 
Been working on this set up and I think I'm in my final configuration on this rifle.
I've reworked the muzzle devise. More to come on that issue.
I've installed a better trigger. I made a bag rider for the rear of the gun. Adding a bit of weight to help the balance and bag sliding ability. I found a little better front rest bag.
Not much more I could do to it to make the gun itself any better or the shooting position.
Shot a target for the postal match today again with the prbullet.com dynamo bullets.
I'd say for a non target hunting bullet it's doing exstreamly well 300 gn bullet with 63gn I4198 sized to .4515 for 15 lbs load force and 20 lbs seat force.
The load over 5 shots had an SD OF 4.7 AND AN ES OF 13.8
I'd say that is about as efficient as I'm going to get.
Here is the group 20240331_153230.jpg
image_cropper_1711942123055.jpg
Shot 4 got away from me a touch I felt it going at the shot.
 
Here is something very intersting
Over the last few days of shooting
I've used the Garmin in concert with the load force gsuge and ramrod stop.
Loading to 15 pnds load force with 20 pounds seat force.
Although I'm still working on tightening up my shooting the chrono reports are very promising.
I do believe this data will come into play at distance more so than at 100 or even 200
It's forced me to rethink my approach.
Used to just except what numbers I got as long as the groups were good.
Now not so much.
I believe I'm going to have to strive for the lowest SD and ES then tune the node on the barrel as a separate feature.
Low SD is a product of consistency in powder charge load technics and an efficient ignition and burn .
I'm leading up to the solution but I'm not ready to show it yet.
Here are the chrono numbers.
A 6ppc shooter would just about be in heaven with these numbers.Screenshot_20240401-141413_ShotView.jpg
 
Same ballistic shooting science, I love to see the application, and knowing he's doing it with giant bullets is all the more cool!!
 

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