BH209 to swab or not?

[drpatton]

GM54-120 and myself had a bit of a difference of opinion on whether to swab or not to swab using BH209. Also a difference of opinion with accuracy. So today was beautiful, 35* sunny and no wind so I decided to do a bit of shooting on my own with my 700ML. Load was 75gr by weight of BH209 (100 gr volume) and a Barnes 250 gr Expander MZ in a Harvester black CR sabot. Now keep in mind my rifle was not sighted in with BH209 but with Alliant Black MZ. I get much better accuracy by better than half with the Black MZ. Considering that's a 6" target without measuring, both those groups are in the neighborhood of 3" Pretty ugly when you're used to 1" - 1 1/5" groups. Below are the two targets. One without swabbing (one primer shot for fouling) and the other with swabbing.
Apparently based on this limited testing there is no difference between either target with maybe a very very slight edge for swabbing - nothing significant.

What solution did you swab with between shots? Just curious. I never used BH209 and I don't know anything about swabbing or not swabbing.

 

[bronko220002]

50/50 windex and 91% alcohol

 

[bronko220002]

Bronko, you didn’t specify your swabbing method. Curious what you used. Spit patch? 50/50 Hoppes/alcohol?

Also, I can’t recall (I’d have to look back at my notes) ever getting great accuracy with BH209 with that light of a charge. I generally run 110-120 grV.

I’ve never tried BlackMZ, but the beauty of BH209 is you could shoot 15-20 or more shots in a row without swabbing and you’d still be shooting that same group. No way to do that with the other subs. And the only limitation there is your breech plug carbon build-up. If you keep your plug drilled out every 5-10 shots, you could probably shoot 100 shots into that same group.

You may be right on the charge. I'm still working with BH209. Right now my time is limited. Going to have some nasty weather coming, then the holidays, flintlock season and the off to Florida until May. It won't be until the spring until I'm shooting it again!

 

[WV Hunter]

I don't swab between shots, and agree...running a dry patch through initially to knock out the heavy fouling makes cleaning a breeze.
I do get MOA with most of my loads across about a half dozen rifles. (knights/omega's)
I would suggest trying different different amounts of volume to see what helps those groups tighten up. I agree, that is a big group... but a small tweak might change that quite a bit. And maybe the sabot as well. Part of the fun with this stuff is figuring out what works.

 

[ENCORE50A]

I did a search and it seems that there are shooters at both ends. Some swab and some don't using BH209

The guys that compete at organized inline muzzleloader events swab. Its done for consistency and for a high degree of accuracy, which isn't necessary for 95% that are just hunters.
Everybody swabbed at the Camp Atterbury 1K shoot.

 

[Teeroy]

I swab every shot, windex and then a dry patch.

 

[deerlessbob]

Back to the suggestion about Harvester sabots. if you can, with little effort, finger push your current bullet-sabot to being even with the end of the barrel, IMHO your sabot is too small. The ten dollars you would spend on some Crush Ribs might be an excellent investment.

 

[ElDiablo]

Shooting sabots, I’ve never found swabbing to make any noticeable difference using BH209.

Perhaps it would when target shooting bullet to bore at 1000 yards.

 

[bronko220002]

Back to the suggestion about Harvester sabots. if you can, with little effort, finger push your current bullet-sabot to being even with the end of the barrel, IMHO your sabot is too small. The ten dollars you would spend on some Crush Ribs might be an excellent investment.

Shooting sabots, I’ve never found swabbing to make any noticeable difference using BH209.

Perhaps it would when target shooting bullet to bore at 1000 yards.

Deerless a crush rib sabot is looser than a smooth one. Your post seems to indicate just the opposite.
Diablo, that appears to be exactly what my little bit of testing shows too..

Next time out, whenever that will be, I will be trying the MMP orange sabots and the 300 gr .458" Barnes TSX bullets and/or 300 gr Hornady .458" hollow points. I will also play with different charges but I have to be cautious with the heavier bullets and a stout charge.

Using BH209 is a learning curve for me. I've been shooting black powder since about 1973 and substitutes when I got my first inline many years ago. I tried BH209 twice before without success but this time I'm not going to quit on it yet and going to give it every chance I can. I'm not ashamed to take advice from others that know a thing or two about it but in the end I'll will form my own opinion for my rifle(s). I have quite a bit of my hard earned $$ in my rifles so I want to squeeze the best accuracy out of them I can.

 

[ENCORE50A]

Loading forces play a significant roll with velocity, with sabots or shooting bullet to bore.
The heavier/higher the loading force, the velocity gets higher.

Swabbing shooting bullet to bore, even at 100yds works pretty good too.
Two diamonds with 5 rounds each.

 

[bronko220002]

Loading forces play a significant roll with velocity, with sabots or shooting bullet to bore.
The heavier/higher the loading force, the velocity gets higher.

Swabbing shooting bullet to bore, even at 100yds works pretty good too.
Two diamonds with 5 rounds each.

View attachment 29117

View attachment 29116

Well sir, if those are actual muzzleloader targets at 100 yards that is very impressive and personally hard to believe without witnessing it. All the shooting I've done in my 60 or so years, and I consider myself a pretty good shot, I've only had 3 CF rifles in my life that could shoot like that.
When I was a much younger man there was a group of us that would go out on a Sunday afternoon and one of the games we would play is to put plastic soup spoons handle first in the corregations of a box and shoot them off hand at 40-50 yards with our flintlocks. Me and 2 other guys were really good at it. One time one of those guys shot a spoon and only took off half of it. Kiddingly I told him that I would get the rest of it for him and damn if I didn't! Most of us shot standard T/C Hawkens or Renegades. Mine was a 50 cal Hawken shooting 250 gr REAL bullets.

 

[ENCORE50A]

Well sir, if those are actual muzzleloader targets at 100 yards that is very impressive. All the shooting I've done in my 60 or so years, and I consider myself a pretty good shot, I've only had 3 CF rifles in my life that could shoot like that.
When I was a much younger man there was a group of us that would go out on a Sunday afternoon and one of the games we would play is to put plastic soup spoons handle first in the corregations of a box and shoot them off hand at 40-50 yards with our flintlocks. Me and 2 other guys were really good at it. One time one of those guys shot a spoon and only took off half of it. Kiddingly I told him that I would get the rest of it for him and damn if I didn't! Most of us shot standard T/C Hawkens or Renegades. Mine was a 50 cal Hawken shooting 250 gr REAL bullets.

My rifle isn't an off the shelf muzzleloader. To be exact, it actually 107yds from the bench to the target on my home range.

 

[toggy]

For those of you with anti-seize/breech plug grease, how do you swab without getting soot in the threads nor grease in the bore? Once I have things cleaned up a little I like to push a dry patch from muzzle to breech... is that a common practice?

 

[WV Hunter]

Encore, show em your 400yd target

bronko, yes... his are fantastic groups. Interestingly, there are quite a few folks here that have shot ragged one hole groups or sub 1" groups at 100yds with many rifles. Myself included. Most of my Knights shoot lights out. The first one hole group I ever shot was with my first MK-85. I had 4 in one ragged hole and was so scared to shoot #5 LOL. Granted, it wasn't nearly as compact as Encore's... his are almost literally a 1hole group. Mine was more like a giant 5 leaf clover with no middle, but I'll take it!

Keep working on your loads. It should definitely get better! I've never owned or shot a 700ML, so I have no specific advice as to how to make those things tick.

 

[ElDiablo]

For those of you with anti-seize/breech plug grease, how do you swab without getting soot in the threads nor grease in the bore? Once I have things cleaned up a little I like to push a dry patch from muzzle to breech... is that a common practice?

Swabbing between shots for most of us is just a patch or two from the muzzle. No need to remove the breech plug.

 

[bronko220002]

My rifle isn't an off the shelf muzzleloader. To be exact, it actually 107yds from the bench to the target on my home range.

Well that is awesome. Well done sir. And yes I would like to see your 400 yard target. Gives me something to strive for!! LOL

 

[GM54-120]

The swab mix for BH209 ive seen some of the shooters mention is 25-50% Hoppes and 50-75% good isopropyl alcohol. Just use ISO-HEET for the alcohol. Its 99%. Nearly any auto parts place has it. Critical sizing with bullet to bore AND when a 1/8" larger group can meen losing or winning....Well thats a no brainer.

Shooting for pure recreation or hunting i never had the need to swab with BH209. If i fired a shot during a hunting weekend i just dry swab the bulk of the fouling out and continue hunting the next day. Shooting conicals at the range its pretty much just shoot until your shoulder gives out. Each wad scrapes some of the fouling down. Sized just a little over lands you can load them easy fouled or clean.

 

[ENCORE50A]

Well that is awesome. Well done sir. And yes I would like to see your 400 yard target. Gives me something to strive for!! LOL

 

[GLenn]

With the groups you two are shooting, I'll never use the term "shoots lights out" again.
I'll just say "shoots light dim"!!

 

[10acres]

Nice shooting. Your 600 yard group is the same as my 100 yard group with my Traditions Pursuit. I was going to take some pics of my groups with my CVA Optima V2 next time out, but not anymore.