Breech plug question

[ENCORE50A]

Continuing on with the research, this morning the breech plug was installed into the Omega using the torque driver, instead of the 1/4" ratchet. The plug had a drop of oil on the threads is all. NO tape, or anti-seize grease was used. The Driver was set to a torque of 30 inch pound, and the plug was tightened at that torque. Wanted to see how much torque it would take to remove the plug, and also, how far the blow by junk, would migrate through the threads. A high pressure load was desired; powder charge was 110g Blackhorn, and the bullet was 300g XTP.

The photo reveal the carbon made it near half way through the threads, so is this a middle seal plug?? When i went to remove the plug, the torque setting on the driver, was left the same as it was when the plug was installed. What i figured to do, was to gradually increase the torque setting, until the plug broke loose. Imagine my surprise, when the 30 inch pound torque broke the plug free, and it was removed from the rifle.

Oops, forgot to say that 11 shots were made.

Thank you Ron. This is good information...........

 

[Squeeze]

LOL and that breech plug has more miles on it than Interstate 80.

 

[sabotloader]

BarnesAddict

You are correct - It did not break loose at 50"#. I had to move it nearly 60"#'s for it to turn the plug loose. From there it turned out very easily...

I am just throwing this out there... Had I tried breaking the plug when the barrel was still warm - it might have broken at nearly the same torque that it went in

The morning shoot consisted of 17 shots with 120 grains of T7-2f. Shooting a .458x275 gr. bullet.

This is a picture of the plug as it came out of the rifle.

 

[Muley Hunter]

The CVA BP is sealed. When using BH 209 which is the most popular powder now. You don't need any anti-seize grease. You need no tape. You can keep the threads on the BP and barrel bone dry. I've taken 50 shots with bone dry threads to prove a point in the past. It was finger tight to install, and it was finger tight to remove. If that isn't a sealed BP I don't know what it.

No argument. Just a fact done by many who own CVA's. Maybe the BP is on the soft side to help it seal in the front.

When you get out amongst the world, trust me, BH209 is not the most popular propellant. BH won't be the only propellant used, ever. So all propellants MUST be considered.

That is not correct Muley... Regular BP outsells all other powders combined. Subs are way down the list and according to Powder Valley - BH does not lead the list of subs sold. Of all things the Pryo's are/were the leading sub sold.

On the net last year someplace I found a posting by Powder Valley of inventory sold for 2013 - I can not find it now... but then again that is only one source of Black Powder sales although they do a large volume of the sales...

I know it. Pellets sell more than any loose powder. I should have said that BH is most up and coming powder. Does it really matter? It was the least important thing in my post. The same test with BH worked with Goex too. The point being the BP didn't stick.

 

[ronlaughlin]

Didn't know if the appearance of the primers shot this morning is relevant or not. Some do show soot leaking through the cup, which to me indicates near maximum pressure, so the load accomplished what i hoped for. There is no indication of leakage around the nose of the primers, thanks to the o-ring.

 

[Butcher45]

There is only one chain of stores that carry muzzleloading supplies in my area, and it's all Pyrodex and 777.

Ask for Blackhorn 209, and they look at you like you are speaking chinese, or maybe they'll show you what 209 primers they carry.

They carry RWS musket caps, though

 

[ENCORE50A]

Didn't know if the appearance of the primers shot this morning is relevant or not. Some do show soot leaking through the cup, which to me indicates near maximum pressure, so the load accomplished what i hoped for. There is no indication of leakage around the nose of the primers, thanks to the o-ring.

It helps. Thank you. Nice look'n primers by the way.

 

[sabotloader]

Encore50

Another pile of spent primers from my ULite...



Geez! the picture is blurry...

 

[Grouse]

Encore50,
Are you looking to improve your ultimate so it's capable of shooting BH209?

 

[ronlaughlin]

He should be if he isn't. Did you note how Mike required twice the torque to remove his plug that i did? Did you note how he protected his plug extensively, what with all that fancy, busy wrap, and alls i did was put a drop of oil on mine?




:mrgreen:

 

[ENCORE50A]

Encore50,
Are you looking to improve your ultimate so it's capable of shooting BH209?

I've shot BH from my Ultimate, but looking into a couple other things associated with all propellants. At the same time, picking others minds for what possible engineering changes could be made to any breech plug to be more user friendly. Including mine.

There's a wealth of information and years of experience that is on this site. It just has to be utilized. I understood when asking that most likely no one had ever checked the amount of torque they put on a non-finger tight breech plug. It sparked interest and we've seen that a couple have actually checked their BP's torque. Its something we all do, but have never known the specifics (torque/tightness). We settled for, "Its tight."
No one in the entire auto industry ever imagined that a single person could pick up, travel with and load a complete instrument panel by themselves. Back in the 80's I was given the use of an engineer, who after a couple trials, created the equipment to do just that. Now, the whole industry copied the process, including all the foreign companies. I guess what I'm saying is, its easy to talk about crushed rib sabots, XTP bullets and/or debate over either. What's hard, is coming up with the new ideas for change, where the engineers in the firearms industry can be given "what ifs" by people who use the product. There's no better place or wealth of information can be received, than from the people that know and utilize the products. Those engineers get paid good money to give us what we have. We should be asking for something that we want.

 

[sabotloader]

He should be if he isn't. Did you note how Mike required twice the torque to remove his plug that i did? Did you note how he protected his plug extensively, what with all that fancy, busy wrap, and alls i did was put a drop of oil on mine?
:mrgreen:

Correct and did you read I torqued my plug 20" #'s greater than you did yours to start with. Removing the plug did require an additional 10" #'s than were applied but I would bet had I removed it when the barrel was warm that would have not been the case.

Correct you are but why do you not that same approach and shoot T7 or the Pyro's and see what the torque might be to get it out...

I know and you know there are advantages to BH but there are also dis-advantageous from my aspect.

I have shot quite a bit of BH and really did not find it that much better than T7 especially when you consider I am paying $20 for a pound of T7... and then of course in the PacNorWest we can not shoot BH while hunting during ML season.

 

[Grouse]

Those engineers get paid good money to give us what we have. We should be asking for something that we want.

I agree 100%, but you gotta change the way people think first. If people are saying everything is great and ok why would any manufacture change it??? They aren't going to. Take a look at posters on this forum, and see what they say bad about there ML that they use or they support. They just don't do it!!

I know your story with your ultimate, and to the rifles defense it was made and designed for pellets. But I completely understand wanting to improve the rifle to make it more efficient for all powders right out of the box. Like I told you before this rifle does get my attention and I'm very impressed with the accuracy you achieve with it.

I would like to see some photos of the ignition system and how it works. I'll go check out the website and see if I can find some.

 

[WTM45]

"Hand tighten the plug until it is firmly against the back of the barrel" as Knight specifies in their manual (KR1015, page 32), with the additional advice of "do not over tighten the plug or it will become difficult to remove."

Who needs more engineering than that? :drinkers:

With a known value for coefficient of friction of lubricated threads, a known value of axial force required for the plug to seal the breech during expansion/burn (probably at proofed levels), and a known range (or specific value) of what a human can "hand tighten" to torque a breech plug the last variable left is to select the actual plug diameter and threads. The receiver diameter and chambering dictates some parameters of that last variable.

Maybe an engineer at Knight would divulge their value of "hand tighten" in inch pounds or foot pounds. :mrgreen:

I don't have any other manufacturer manuals here in my workshop. Maybe some others can provide what they specify.

 

[ronlaughlin]

......Correct you are but why do you not that same approach and shoot T7 or the Pyro's and see what the torque might be to get it out....

Well i don't have any pyro..... Yes, i do have some 777, but it has been sitting on the shelf for ????, since 2008? Seems i have zero desire to go to the trouble of wrapping my plug with all that plastic, just so i can remove it from my rifle, after i shoot it.

No, i shan't be testing those powders that require one to take steps, so one can remove the plug from one's rifle, after burning them, when all i have to do, to shoot Blackhorn, is nothing.

To me, burning those powder in your sweet nice rifles, is like putting bias ply tires on a brand new pick up.

You are free to do as you wish, as am i.

 

[ENCORE50A]

Those engineers get paid good money to give us what we have. We should be asking for something that we want.

I agree 100%, but you gotta change the way people think first. If people are saying everything is great and ok why would any manufacture change it??? They aren't going to. Take a look at posters on this forum, and see what they say bad about there ML that they use or they support. They just don't do it!!

I know your story with your ultimate, and to the rifles defense it was made and designed for pellets. But I completely understand wanting to improve the rifle to make it more efficient for all powders right out of the box. Like I told you before this rifle does get my attention and I'm very impressed with the accuracy you achieve with it.

I would like to see some photos of the ignition system and how it works. I'll go check out the website and see if I can find some.

Its true, people deal with what they have because its "normal" and they accept it as normal. No one wants to change, because change is hard and it takes away their "normal".

I know its OT to a point but, the friend who originally purchased a RU that had the bad barrel and Remington purchased the rifle back, bought a BP Xpress. He emailed me last night after his first chance to shoot it to 300 yards. He is getting sub-MOA groups first time shooting at 300.

Yes, the Ultimate and the Remington Ultimate ignition systems are designed to shoot pellets. Both rifles will shoot loose propellants and do it very well. RW jumped on one of the RU rifles and started out shooting BH, then others jumped in shooting BH also. UF Inc. doesn't want anyone shooting BH from the rifle, as to many BP's have had to be replaced from doing so. However, the UF rifle will shoot BH.

As for the ignition system on either the RU or UF........ Both plugs are front sealing.

 

[Squeeze]

Now that youve shot it a while, whats your thoughts on that module system? Has anyone tried to re-purpose cut down .308 cases?

 

[ENCORE50A]

Now that youve shot it a while, whats your thoughts on that module system? Has anyone tried to re-purpose cut down .308 cases?

I've put 1,000 rounds through my BP Xpress. The module system or brass case, is the easiest loading of a primer (carrier) possible. Drop the case in the chamber and close the bolt. It can be done in pitch black darkness and with gloves. The LMRP's are hot, non-corrosive and there's no cleaning necessary of the flash channel/hole. You remove the fired brass by hand, so its not ejected to the ground and save it for re-priming.
Of course the case must be de-primed and re-primed, which to most takes them away from their "normal". However it beats the heck out of watching re-runs of NCIS and its quickly done. It is by far the easiest loading of a primer I've ever used.

A number of RU shooters are cutting down readily available .308 cases but, these are not the "normal" shooters either.

 

[sabotloader]

As for the ignition system on either the RU or UF........ Both plugs are front sealing.

Thanks for the information - interesting plug.

I know this might not be what you might want to do but have you ever thought about trying some white on it just to see if it will even go down in. If you get the application close to right you should be able to look down the muzzle with a light and see white blossom of tape all the way around the bottom of the bore.

But in all of this I think you have answered some of my concerns about a rear sealing plug. Yet I have a real concern why it might seize with BH??? Really a mystery to me.

Also as it turns out 80 is really not that far from 60" #'s that I seem to bee using. Until you mentioned I had no idea what I might be torqueing at. I will tell you I would have never guessed that amount. Even for me to go to 80 would be very easy.

 

[ENCORE50A]

This morning turned out really nice, so I hung a piece of cardboard that I shoot after removing a scope. The bench wasn't bad, just covered it with a couple towels.

I used the Permatex Nickel on clean threads and installed the plug to 65 inch pounds before shooting.

Instead of shooting the maximum charges I normally shoot, I dropped it back to 120grs and used 275gr Parker BE's.

I fired 19 rounds and the breech plug will not remove. I would have to put it in a barrel vice and heat it, then it would most likely break free. In hind site, I should have taped those threads before this trial. I have another plan in the works.....

For those who may say....... "OMG, that's not right"............ well understand that with this rifle, the plug wasn't designed to be removed.