Drop Tube

[ElDiablo]

You’ve established that a small variation can make a difference at long range but you haven’t established that a grain or more of powder can/does get stuck in the barrel. I contend that even if it did the wad would push it all down.

I’d like to see some actual data. Maybe shoot the rifle and swab as usual. Then pull the bp and pour a weighed load down the barrel. Catch it at the breech and weigh again to see if you lost any to the grooves. Then do that 10 more times. Or use a borescope to look.

Then IF you identify stuck powder, then do that same test again and push a wad through the barrel each time to see if it is pushing any stuck powder on through.

 

[Pierre]

Can someone please write "drop tubes for dummies & Marines" so far makes no sense. Concur with some of the remarks that once you ram everything down the muzzle with the cloth surrounding the projectile or sabot it should push all that powder down from the barrel.

 

[MrTom]

I have no idea if the tubes are a benefit or not, but then I am not shooting long range. I was curious about the static factor is all. However, I am a big proponent of consistency and is why I weigh my bullets and my powder. In my opinion consistency is the forerunner to confidence and shooting with confidence is a win-win all around.

I do carry a small, static treated funnel to the range with me and also in the pocket with reloading goodies to the woods when I hunt. The same concept, just a shorter version of the tube. In the field I want everything to be as consistent to what I do at the range as possible. I don't hurry follow-up shots and I am not in a hurry at the range. I have confidence in my guns individually by knowing every little quirk about each one. That comes from consistency, 100%. And I believe that most all here desire to achieve at least some consistency when they shoot or go afield. Lacking confidence in a gun or one's self should be reason enough not to go chase a deer or elk or moose or bear or any game animal for that matter.

While I have zero interest in using a tube, I can see Encore's rationale behind using one as he too is looking for consistency. Whether anyone else agrees with what he does and uses is moot when it comes to his consistency on the shooting line and all of that gives him the confidence to shoot at those distances. I admire anyone who can step up to a three hundred target and shoot groups of 2 or thee inches. To be able to ring the bell at 1000 yards is a fantasy for me, so I say if that tube matters enough to trust it, use it. Good luck on your long range encore and 45-70.

 

[ENCORE50A]

Encore you highlighted the wrong area on the last chart................

LOL.................. The highlighted area (red) you're looking at, is the distance at which the bullets goes SUB-SONIC. It has nothing to do with anything other than where the bullets will go sub-sonic. The gray area is highlighted to indicate the zero range.

Pay no attention to the highlighted areas.

The only data to pay attention to is the MOA at 1,000yds with the difference in velocity.

Using the ACTUAL velocity (2,100fps) the required minutes up is 74.9moa is required at 1,000yds. First chart.

Subtract 2grs at someone's 15fps per grain, that's a 30fps loss in velocity, now we're down to 2,070fps and the chart says 76.9moa up is required.

76.9 - 74.9 = a 2 minute difference, or 20" at 1,000yds. Again, you could miss the entire backstop.

 

[ENCORE50A]

You’ve established that a small variation can make a difference at long range but you haven’t established that a grain or more of powder can/does get stuck in the barrel. I contend that even if it did the wad would push it all down.

I’d like to see some actual data. Maybe shoot the rifle and swab as usual. Then pull the bp and pour a weighed load down the barrel. Catch it at the breech and weigh again to see if you lost any to the grooves. Then do that 10 more times. Or use a borescope to look.

Then IF you identify stuck powder, then do that same test again and push a wad through the barrel each time to see if it is pushing any stuck powder on through.

I'm shooting a bolt. You shoot a break open, which would be much easier to test. Have at it and if possible, video it. Weigh the charge going down a fouled barrel, the weigh it when it comes out as some do not use wads at all. After that, weigh one going in, push a veggie wad through and then weigh those.
One charge does not provide data. 20 should give you some good statistical data.
Eagerly awaiting the video and data.

 

[bronko220002]

Oh I see that's 2 MOA. I was looking at the wrong column. Yea 2 MOA @ 1000 yards is 20"+

 

[ENCORE50A]

I have no idea if the tubes are a benefit or not, but then I am not shooting long range. I was curious about the static factor is all. However, I am a big proponent of consistency and is why I weigh my bullets and my powder. In my opinion consistency is the forerunner to confidence and shooting with confidence is a win-win all around.

I do carry a small, static treated funnel to the range with me and also in the pocket with reloading goodies to the woods when I hunt. The same concept, just a shorter version of the tube. In the field I want everything to be as consistent to what I do at the range as possible. I don't hurry follow-up shots and I am not in a hurry at the range. I have confidence in my guns individually by knowing every little quirk about each one. That comes from consistency, 100%. And I believe that most all here desire to achieve at least some consistency when they shoot or go afield. Lacking confidence in a gun or one's self should be reason enough not to go chase a deer or elk or moose or bear or any game animal for that matter.

While I have zero interest in using a tube, I can see Encore's rationale behind using one as he too is looking for consistency. Whether anyone else agrees with what he does and uses is moot when it comes to his consistency on the shooting line and all of that gives him the confidence to shoot at those distances. I admire anyone who can step up to a three hundred target and shoot groups of 2 or thee inches. To be able to ring the bell at 1000 yards is a fantasy for me, so I say if that tube matters enough to trust it, use it. Good luck on your long range encore and 45-70.

That's probably the best post on this topic!

There are to many key board experts, who have absolutely ZERO KNOWLEDGE about shooting long ranges, ranges from 500yds to 1,000yds, yet they know everything right and wrong about shooting those distances. There are just 3 of us, possibly 4 on this site that shoot modern inline rifles beyond 500yds. Yes, there are a couple others that shoot BPCR's at distance, even traditional muzzleloaders. Even those who are actually shooting distance, are still learning.

When you see a World Champion, Govenor's Cup Champions, multiple winners of the NMLRA summer and fall Nationals, ALL using an identical process, there's a damn good reason to pay attention.

 

[BuckDoeHunter]

I have a lot of respect for the long range shooters. It's something I want to do and I definitely want to attend one of the long range muzzleloader shooting events.

How far above the poured powder column in the barrel does the drop tube end?

 

[ENCORE50A]

I have a lot of respect for the long range shooters. It's something I want to do and I definitely want to attend one of the long range muzzleloader shooting events.

How far above the poured powder column in the barrel does the drop tube end?

My drop tube sets directly on the face of the Arrowhead breech plug, thus filling that also.

There is another 1K match in September, again at Camp Atterbury, IN. If you could make the match, even only as a observer, you'll learn a ton of information.

 

[ElDiablo]

Eagerly awaiting the video and data.

Me too. Let us know when you acquire some data.

 

[ENCORE50A]

I just came in a while ago from sending 20 rounds. Using the identical process, and visual inspection of the tube, not a SINGLE piece of BH209 remained inside or on the tube.

 

[ElDiablo]

I just came in a while ago from sending 20 rounds. Using the identical process, and visual inspection of the tube, not a SINGLE piece of BH209 remained inside or on the tube.

Now try that without the tube.

 

[ENCORE50A]

Now try that without the tube.

DAH.......................... Why don't I just go to the bench, pick up the tube and look down it now. Same result. Nothing in the tube. If I didn't use the tube, why would there be anything in it?

El......... quit grasping at straws, just to disagree. Which is exactly what you are doing. You have absolutely ZERO knowledge of shooting long range 1,000yds, with a modern inline rifle.
You have two opportunities to prove me wrong. Do the test as described above. Prove me wrong. Second opportunity would be to attend one of the 1,000yd matches. There's no elk hunting in June.

 

[ElDiablo]

DAH.......................... Why don't I just go to the bench, pick up the tube and look down it now. Same result. Nothing in the tube. If I didn't use the tube, why would there be anything in it?

I’m saying go shoot 20 rounds without using your loading tube and see if your results are any different down range. You and one of the other LONG range shooters here have stated that there is no data to support your theory. One doesn’t have to be a 1000 yard shooter to call BS on this.

 

[ENCORE50A]

............... One doesn’t have to be a 1000 yard shooter to call BS on this.

Quite frankly, anyone reading these posts, knows without a shadow of a doubt, you have no long range knowledge with modern inlines. Especially being a sabot only shooter. Call BS if you want, but you are totally unable to prove ANY of us long range shooters wrong. Its so funny...........
However, you'd rather disagree, call BS, and argue, over things you have no knowledge of, or have ever attempted. Narcissistic ?
You're adamant about shooting sabots, saying they're the best thing possible, which tells anyone with ANY long range experience you have no clue.

Sorry there fella, but just because you respond to every post in every subject on this whole site, making some believe you're the resident expert on all subjects, doesn't mean squat.

I call any experience you may claim to have shooting modern inline rifles at ranges of 500 to 1,000yds............ BS.

Now..... do what you do best. Hit like and the laughing icon. Make me right again.

 

[ElDiablo]

Well, there are opinions and then there are facts (and opinions based on facts).

Simple question. Maybe someone can explain to me how a particle of powder that measures .040-.050” in size can get stuck in grooves that are .006” deep?

Here’s a couple pics of some BH209 sitting in a fouled barrel.

 

[edmehlig]

For what it's worth, I know Idaholewis used a drop tube all the time when he did his testing of bullets.

 

[ENCORE50A]

For what it's worth, I know Idaholewis used a drop tube all the time when he did his testing of bullets.

Yes sir. IIRC he used one when he had the inline shooting long range.

 

[45-70]

A metal tube can be charged with static from the air while handling. How can you be positive that every grain of powder is reaching the bottom and to the point intended and some not hung up by static? Steel brake line is fairly narrow, at least that which I've worked with is, so how do you pass a partial sheet of fabric softener sheet thru it to get rid of the static should there be any? Being metal, maybe the tube discharges any static thru the gun? I think the tube concept is great, but I've seen firsthand how much powder can hang up in a charge tube due to static and would think that in itself should give concern.

never had that problem , and don't understand why someone always questions what seems to work. I guess to each his own

 

[45-70]

Encore you highlighted the wrong area on the last chart. At 2100fps vel is 1071.5, at 2090 its 1068.3, and the last chart using your 30 fps loss for the 2 gr is 1061.9.
But more importantly if you look at the drop between 2100 and 2090 fps the difference is only 0.4" at 700 yards. Even with the 2 grain loss bringing your 2100 down to 2070 the difference is 1.3" at 700 yards. That's less than 0.2 MOA.
At 1000 yards the difference in drop is 0.7" and 2.0" which still puts you at a 0.2 MOA or smaller difference.
The figures don't lie and the charts prove the point. Now unless your rifle can shoot one hole groups at 700 yards a drop tube ain't going to help you a whole lot.
Honestly, I believe someone with a lot of influence started using a drop tube and shot really good with it that particular day and convinced you all that's the way to go. But hey, if it gives you confidence, by all mean go for it.
Like you said though Elevation is just math - windage is an artform. I'd be more concerned about windage if these charts are accurate.

Been doing it 23 years started with black at 1000 yds. No disrespect but I have my way you do yours