First of many days with the 50 cal fast twist smokeless trying to establish Harvester smooth or ribbed?

[Mnt monkey]

You are wise, because actually it's the limits of the plastic we have to work with that hold smokeless muzzle loading and even I think all types of muzzle loading back,,again muzzleloaders are highly skilled at taking what they're giving and making the best out of it, if Harvester had a new 50 cal and a new 45 Cal that would just take 20% more pressure it would breathe new life into a lot of smokeless shooting,, I have to say this both the 57 grain 45 Cal load I shoot with plastic and this 59 grain with the black Harvester are not high pressure loads they are safe in the guns that I shoot and I'm very much happy with the accuracy both those calibers and loads I really couldn't ask for more in that department,, I think the more people that shot these two loads out of rifles that have appropriate twist maybe the more need and demand it will place on the sabot makers,, always looking forward

 

[Mnt monkey]

I believe plastic likes fast twist but it has to have a stronger base I say that from 45 ,,18 twists and just a week of shooting this 50 cal 22 twist the 18 twist barrels that I have in 45 shoot 200 grain bullets almost better than anything I put in them and if you just look at the twist up front you would not think that,, this 250 grain Shockwave which is kind of the 45 Cal version of the 200 SST shoots great in this 50 cal 22 twist sure not my bullet of choice I want to focus on the 275 to 325s but I know if other people look at the fast twist 50 down the road they're going to want to just shoot some basic 250 the fast twist is going to eat them up.

 

[Mnt monkey]

If you think about it doesn't the most efficient plastic obturation being the most accurate load and balancing makes sense it does to me when sizing bullets for bore riding the obturation and sealing efficiency of your load is everything ,it is the same with plastic ,and that's why I submit to you that finding that perfect place with your plastic should be as important as anything if you are shooting plastic.

 

[ElDiablo]

If you think about it doesn't the most efficient plastic obturation being the most accurate load and balancing makes sense it does to me when sizing bullets for bore riding the obturation and sealing efficiency of your load is everything ,it is the same with plastic ,and that's why I submit to you that finding that perfect place with your plastic should be as important as anything if you are shooting plastic.

I’m surprised anyone is shooting plastic these days - I though everyone was going to sized bullets….

 

[HV-Muzzleloaders]

I’m surprised anyone is shooting plastic these days - I though everyone was going to sized bullets….

Many of the people on this forum could be classified as "Muzzleloader Nuts", and that includes me.

Very few of the others have a bullet sizer. What Mnt monkey is doing can also help those who do not have a sizer.

I have a 1-24 twist Brux barrel with a breech diameter of 1.125" on a Rem 700ML/clone I built. It has a 1-1/8" Savage barrel nut (20 TPI) on it to make head spacing easy, with a 16 TPI x 1-1/16" thread where it screws into the action.
I am going to try this load in my rifle.

 

[Decay]

I'm not getting the accuracy with VVN110 or VVN120 that you're getting with 4198. And I can't find any available anywhere now. Not even Gunbroker for $100 per ounce. What's it gonna take to get that 100 yd group under 1/2"? Wad under sabot? Knurling? I haven't tried either yet with the new barrel.
Shooting is now second priority. My boat motor is running and I'm goin fishin today.

 

[MrTom]

Decay.... I think you mentioned being in Eau Claire? Drive down to Rochester's Scheels. They have plenty of IMR4198. Coyote Creek has it too.

 

[Decay]

I'm in East Point Florida till May 2. Scheels in Eau Claire might get it, but had none the last week of December. If they have it in Rochester, I'd drive there on wednesday to get some. maybe I'll have to pay them to mail some to me down here. I'll check.

Thanks.

 

[MrTom]

I'm in East Point Florida till May 2. Scheels in Eau Claire might get it, but had none the last week of December. If they have it in Rochester, I'd drive there on wednesday to get some. maybe I'll have to pay them to mail some to me down here. I'll check.

Thanks.

Don't get in a hurry on the powder Decay.... I just checked and the Rochester store shows no IMR 4198. Had a lot, maybe 15-18 jugs only a couple weeks ago. None on hand today I'll check with coyote creek and if they have it would it help for me to grab a jug for you and you could just me and get it?

 

[Decay]

More caffeine fueled brainstorming:

If the plastic sabot is the magic button, is the temperature of the plastic an issue? A 10 degrees morning during a Wisconsin deer hunt in December is considerably colder than a warm Arkansas afternoon. I don’t think I can control the plastic’s temperature to keep it warm so I’d have to find the sweet spot during cold weather. I can imagine plastic getting softer if I left it on my dashboard on a hot sunny day but that’s an extreme that’s unreasonable. At normal handling, from house to kit bag while hunting, and in the rifle during a cold week when I haven’t taken a shot, that’s not an extreme temperature swing . How stable is the plastic formula due to temperature variation.

 

[Decay]

More caffeine fueled brainstorming:

If the plastic sabot is the magic button, is the temperature of the plastic an issue? A 10 degrees morning during a Wisconsin deer hunt in December is considerably colder than a warm Arkansas afternoon. I don’t think I can control the plastic’s temperature to keep it warm so I’d have to find the sweet spot during cold weather. I can imagine plastic getting softer if I left it on my dashboard on a hot sunny day but that’s an extreme that’s unreasonable. At normal handling, from house to kit bag while hunting, and in the rifle during a cold week when I haven’t taken a shot, that’s not an extreme temperature swing . How stable is the plastic formula due to temperature variation.

We’ll that last
Message was supposed to go on a different thread

 

[Mnt monkey]

Decay those are good questions, that I have no idea,, my point I keep going back to is when you're shooting a plastic load it is important to consider the tune of that plastic, whereas I think most of us approach working up a load considering more powder volume and bullet weight, I keep seeing this,,all of my accurate plastic loads are directly related to the sabots function, and I guess all of us that shoot sabots loads would say well duh,, that's obvious but I don't think we consider it enough and work with it enough. The two loads that I crow about so much the 57 grain load of IMR and the light blue in a 45 Cal fast twist and now this 59 grain load in a 50 cal fast twist shooting six or seven bullets all less than MOA with the same load something is screaming at me about that quote same load both the 57 and the 59 grains are consistent at least the 57 grain load is in many many rifles my stubborn simple to mind keeps asking why is that I predict I'm going to see that same consistency in the 59 grain load in other barrels I won't know that until I shoot other barrels I am convinced of this with improved Plastics plastic shooting could go to some great places even better than it is now it won't go there if we don't push it I don't think Harvester is fixing to come out next week with a new line of smokeless long distance Plastics or anybody else and that is too bad cuz I see such potential

 

[HV-Muzzleloaders]

I don't think Harvester is fixing to come out next week with a new line of smokeless long distance Plastics or anybody else and that is too bad cuz I see such potential

The plastic has to be soft enough to be engraved by the rifling, but hard enough to withstand the pressure of the propellant.

The softer plastic of the MMP sabots seems to be "stickier", but as you have proven will not handle the higher pressures.

Some of the newer firearms are made of plastics with Kevlar fibers mixed in with the plastic.

 

[ENCORE50A]

More caffeine fueled brainstorming:

If the plastic sabot is the magic button, is the temperature of the plastic an issue? A 10 degrees morning during a Wisconsin deer hunt in December is considerably colder than a warm Arkansas afternoon. I don’t think I can control the plastic’s temperature to keep it warm so I’d have to find the sweet spot during cold weather. I can imagine plastic getting softer if I left it on my dashboard on a hot sunny day but that’s an extreme that’s unreasonable. At normal handling, from house to kit bag while hunting, and in the rifle during a cold week when I haven’t taken a shot, that’s not an extreme temperature swing . How stable is the plastic formula due to temperature variation.

Plastic can have a huge durometer fluctuation caused from hot to cold, warm to cool. Sabots are not immune to temperature changes.
Cool/cold will make it harder.
Warm/hot will make it softer.
Warm/moist will make it softer yet.
Does your POI change when its 80° vs -5°?

Durometer testing is the standard for testing the hardness of plastics.

 

[Mnt monkey]

This might be worth a different thread but I would ask the question here how could the light blue and the Harvester black be improved so that a smokeless shooter could push 10 to 20% more and still be in that light to medium shank barrel taper load area, if there was another maybe 1/8 added to the base height ,is it changing the plastic viscosity ,to something slightly stronger I don't have those answers necessarily, but it doesn't really seem like it's very complex someone once told me that a new mold to make a new sabot was around 5 to $8,000 maybe that's wrong, I do not know there's probably other people on here that would estimate that my point is again if there was a slight improvement in this area it would make things much better,it would make having a light to medium weight rifles that you could actually walk and hunt with that shot light to medium loads much better. I went back yesterday and shot the orange 458 with a sub base also tried some 44 green ribbed with some 44 cal bullets I could only find bits and pieces of both sabot's so far for me there are only two sabot's and the different versions of those two that are practical to shoot smokeless the light blue and the black the others are a waste of time that shouldn't be that way hopefully that plastic picture will improve in the future too.

 

[Decay]

I guess I keep shooting more powder till I start seeing clear signs of sabot failure. Right now the petals on the harvester light blue crushribs are twisting in a spiral and the cup is flaring a little. but I haven't, to my knowledge, blown a petal off yet. Maybe I'm not at enough powder/pressure to have found that sweet spot for the sabot in my barrel with the VitaVhouri powder. The recoil is gettin up there though.

 

[Mnt monkey]

About 90% of my plastic shooting are in button rifle barrels cut rifle barrel sometimes is a little different with plastic loads I have had some cut rifle barrels that were hard on plastic

 

[MrTom]

Our MN earlier season is ahead of your Wisconsin season by about two weeks Decay. As a rule if I am going to hunt a new load in any of my inlines I try to hit the range ahead of time during a period when the weather and temps will most likely mimic those found during the season. If there are issues with the sabot that are temperature related, I want to know well ahead of the season so I can make adjustments or go bad to a proven load that shoots well at the coolest of the temperature spread normally found in the season.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

@Mnt monkey could you put up some pics of your sabots, after they're fired in a (.45)57gr or (.50)59gr 4198 load? Seems like mine are about to blow out at 56 - 56.5 gr. I think a lot us haven't pushed loads to the sabot limit and aren't sure what it looks like.
Also, might have missed it, are you knurling? If not, do you think it will hurt or help accuracy, when you are pushing the sabots to the brink.

 

[Mnt monkey]

Yes I thought about that earlier it's a good idea and I'm fixing to shoot my law of muzzleloading science load again so I'll have some Light blues to post