Opinions Wanted - Terminal Performance

[deermanok]

Maiden voyage indeed. I should also acknowledge that, true to sidelock form, I did have one load that failed to go off. Cap popped but no boom. Waited a minute, recapped... shot again, and boom. Barrel is definately tighter than my CVA Wolf, difficult to both start and finish loading the Hornady sabot... doable, but tight. Swabbed after three shots.

Those bullets loaded really tight in my deerhunter also. I only use conicals in it now unless I can find a thinner walled sabot.
I recommend trying Hornady's PA conicals in the deerhunter. A box of 50 will run you less than 20 bucks.

 

[Harley469]

I am confirming that in my case it was a Hornady XTP 240 grain in a sabot out of a 1:48 twist. Maybe this will work for you? 54 Cal. Sabot 300 gr. .452 Hornady XTP Mag Bullet - Pack Qty: 12

When I got home today the .54 sabots came in- I had ordered for both .500 and .451/.452 diameter bullets. I have a box of 300gr Hornady XTP Mags and 250gr XTP's, along with a few different .500 diameter bullets. I don't think a 1:48 twist will stabilize FTX bullets but I could give it a try. I have probably half a box of those. Will give them all a go this weekend.

 

[Harley469]

I'm sure some of you are sick of my pictures.
In 50 cal I use my Lee 500S&W bullet paper patched and sized. These are 458 grains. I have shot a lot of game with them. I mean a lot, and I can tell you I have not seen a bullet come close to them. The bull in the picture was the second one I found a bullet In. I dropped him in his tracks at 248 yards.
I shot a cow at 60 yards. Crushed the shoulder and found the bullet in the flank.
No matter where I hit deer and antelope it blows right through them.
The Hornady 385 gr bullet is such a poor bullet I can't recommend them. The power belts are so awful I can't recommend them.
The only bullets I recommend are the no excuse.

How did you compensate for a 248 yard shot using a 458gr bullet out of a Hawkin rifle, and what was your powder charge. I am guessing you have some kind of Vernier/tang sight on there and have done a tremendous amount of practicing/ballistics to calculate bullet drop at that distance. And what kind of energy is in a bullet that size at 250 yrds?

 

[BlackPowderGuy (AJHS)]

Those bullets loaded really tight in my deerhunter also. I only use conicals in it now unless I can find a thinner walled sabot.
I recommend trying Hornady's PA conicals in the deerhunter. A box of 50 will run you less than 20 bucks.

I plan to really play around with things this summer/fall... I have the Hornady Great Plains bullets to try, may order some of the Parker HydroCons... This week was all about the urgency of getting an "acceptable" load for the upcoming hunt. After that, I'll have time to play around.
I do remain nervous about a pure lead bullet like the PA conical or great plains because I do feed the meat to my kids and really don't want them getting too much lead. Maybe that should not be a concern since the reality is that I'll only harvest one deer a year with this gun, the rest of my deer are by crossbow, inline ML or rifle...Where I have all copper or bonded bullet options. - I wonder whether the Harvester Crush Ribs will load a little easier. The ramrod that came with the gun is garbage...it'll snap like a twig under any pressure.

 

[deermanok]

The lead bullet for hunting is a whole other subject for debate in itself.

 

[BlackPowderGuy (AJHS)]

The lead bullet for hunting is a whole other subject for debate in itself.

What shape starter do you use with the PA conical to avoid deforming it...If it took the kind of pressure to load the lead conical that it took to stuff the Hornady XTP down the barrel it would surely deform.

 

[Hatchet Jack]

My 1-48 twist Renegade likes the 460 gr No Excuses bullets with a wool wad. Most accurate charge is 65 gr of Swiss 2F. Every deer I have shot with this load ended up with an exit hole.
My 1-48 also likes the Hornady 385 gr Great Plains bullet. They will clover leaf with charges ranging from 80 to 100 gr of Swiss 2F.

 

[idahoron]

How did you compensate for a 248 yard shot using a 458gr bullet out of a Hawkin rifle, and what was your powder charge. I am guessing you have some kind of Vernier/tang sight on there and have done a tremendous amount of practicing/ballistics to calculate bullet drop at that distance. And what kind of energy is in a bullet that size at 250 yrds?

Yes I have a tang mounted Lyman 57sml peep and 17aml globe with Lee Shavers BPCR inserts.
I took a range with my range finder. I set the sight for the shot and squeezed the trigger. The load was 458 gr bullet, over powder wad measuring .620, and 80 gr of pyrodex P.
That load at the muzzle is at 1753 fpe. At 250 yards it's still at 1067 fpe.
Knowing I was close to private property I knew I had to put him down as quick as I could. I held for a high shoulder shot.
The bullet broke the shoulder and took out the spine. The bullet was found the the off shoulder. It only lost 4 grains of mass.
That rifle is my Hot Rod Renegade.

 

[minelabbob]

i would say get some more range time in when it gets a little warmer and compare test. myself i would go with
250gr. xtp and have at it! work on your charge try to stay around 80-100gr. charge. a 80- 100 gr. charge will
be enough to drop anything in your sights. the xtp will do the rest!

 

[deermanok]

What shape starter do you use with the PA conical to avoid deforming it...If it took the kind of pressure to load the lead conical that it took to stuff the Hornady XTP down the barrel it would surely deform.

I have one of those cheapy Allen short starters from Walmart.
All plastic, except for the brass screw on tip.
Using the little nub on the ball of the starter, I give the bullet a good smack or two with the palm of my hand. Once started, it goes down the barrel very easily.

 

[Benchman]

240 and 250 XTP'S will be fine in a 1:48. 300's may or may not stabilize. You will almost always get an exit with a 300, you may not with the 240 or 250. All kill deer very well.

 

[Harley469]

Yes I have a tang mounted Lyman 57sml peep and 17aml globe with Lee Shavers BPCR inserts.
I took a range with my range finder. I set the sight for the shot and squeezed the trigger. The load was 458 gr bullet, over powder wad measuring .620, and 80 gr of pyrodex P.
That load at the muzzle is at 1753 fpe. At 250 yards it's still at 1067 fpe.
Knowing I was close to private property I knew I had to put him down as quick as I could. I held for a high shoulder shot.
The bullet broke the shoulder and took out the spine. The bullet was found the the off shoulder. It only lost 4 grains of mass.
That rifle is my Hot Rod Renegade.

That is one hell of a shot, and I would have gone the shoulder route as well. I absolutely hate Pyrodex (just due to the smell alone), but it gets the job done. I have been considering getting a Sharps 45/70 for a couple years now with a tang sight and a barrel sight on the front. I would only be able to use it on out of state hunts though since in IL we can only deer hunt with Shotguns or muzzleloaders. Getting out west will eventually happen-I hope. Again, excellent shooting.

 

[ILoveMuzzleloading]

There are a few videos on YouTube showing the bullets performance in gel, jugs and other stoppers. As others have said, doesn’t compare 1;1 to meat but gives a general idea

 

[morehops]

IMO, a slow moving heavy chuck of lead, (conical bullet), at close range, will hit like a freight train.

Absolutely. Maxi + 90gr BP = deer in its tracks. No tracking needed

 

[mnoland30]

A flat front bullet (big meplat) or hollowpoint will hit them hard. You'll find that at muzzleloader velocities, a lead bullet doesn't fragment like it would in a center fire. My first muzzleloader deer the bullet went through the tenderloin. It wasn't even bloodshot. I just cut around it and cooked it up.

 

[Dave951]

A flat front bullet (big meplat) or hollowpoint will hit them hard. You'll find that at muzzleloader velocities, a lead bullet doesn't fragment like it would in a center fire. My first muzzleloader deer the bullet went through the tenderloin. It wasn't even bloodshot. I just cut around it and cooked it up.

And here's what that looks like in a Civil War musket. The Rapine "Trash Can" on the right, middle is RCBS, and left is Moose International. The Rapine is 475gr and the other two are even heavier.-


Does it shoot? Get your load development right and here you go at 50yd-

 

[Dave951]

Kinetic Energy (in foot-pounds) = bullet weight (in grains) x velocity x velocity (fps) / 450240

example: a 115 grain bullet traveling at 1300 fps = 431 ft. lbs of muzzle energy.

The formula above reveals the fact that changing the velocity of the bullet makes the biggest difference in energy. Doubling the weight of the bullet doubles the energy, but doubling the velocity changes the energy by a factor of four.

The world doesn't revolve around KE on paper. The problem with tossing around KE and FPS numbers is nobody takes into account MOMENTUM (p=m*v).

So basic physics here
KE=.5*mass*square of velocity
P=mass*velocity

In calculating Momentum, the velocity is at the instantaneous point where impact is occurring. Armchair ballisticians don't like to do calculus to get instantaneous velocity, but momentum can be observed in action. Case in point, why does the old "fuddy duddy" "weak" 45/70 load work so well? Maaaybee it's that 400+gr bullet that doesn't shed velocity at the same rate as the zippy lightweights. Ballistic Coefficient is a thing and mass does enter into this discussion in velocity retention if you want to be intellectually honest. That's why a round ball, the measuring standard of BC, is so horrible at distance. It sheds velocity faster than almost any other bullet.

Putting on my Instructor hat here- all a modern gun does for the hunter is to cover up poor marksmanship and allow a good marksman to make at hit reliably at further distances.

 

[Dave951]

Those bullets loaded really tight in my deerhunter also. I only use conicals in it now unless I can find a thinner walled sabot.
I recommend trying Hornady's PA conicals in the deerhunter. A box of 50 will run you less than 20 bucks.

A "box" of 50 of each of the 3 bullets I posted will run you about $3.50/ box of 50. Yeah, casting makes a lot of sense.

 

[HV-Muzzleloaders]

Putting on my Instructor hat here- all a modern gun does for the hunter is to cover up poor marksmanship and allow a good marksman to make at hit reliably at further distances.

Many of Daniel Morgan's men had the more modern "rifles" as compared to Redcoat smoothbores, at the Battle of Cowpens.

Did Tarleton's men notice the difference?


Cowpens: A Brilliant Victory | The Southern Campaign - YouTube


.

 

[deermanok]

A "box" of 50 of each of the 3 bullets I posted will run you about $3.50/ box of 50. Yeah, casting makes a lot of sense.

I agree with you.