What do you think of the Firestick/Nitrofire system?

[CatamountRob]

BH209 is 83% smokeless powder (nitrocellulose), based on the SDS that comes from the company.

That might well be but it’s not classified as smokeless which is all that matters.

 

[LBAhunter]

If you go back and read the first page of this thread is how I feel about it.

 

[alternate]

This is a solution looking for a problem.

 

[HV-Muzzleloaders]

That might well be but it’s not classified as smokeless which is all that matters.

The redefinition of words is one of the biggest problems in our world today. Why? Because it hides the truth.

When a nominee to the United States Supreme Court cannot define the word "woman", we know the truth has left the room.

Several states have already redefined "muzzleloader" in order to make the "Firestick" legal. Any unbiased witness would have to say it is half breechloader and half muzzleloader.

 

[MrTom]

The redefinition of words is one of the biggest problems in our world today. Why? Because it hides the truth.

Here's the truth.

Every manufacturer of current muzzleloaders recognizes BH 209 as a suitable BLACK POWDER SUB WHEN and IF it is used in guns designed to handle it AND it is used within the parameters set forth by the gun makers AND the powder maker. Break action and bolt guns qualify as suitable. Plunger and side lock actions do not.

Another truth.... BH209 may by technical terms be seen by some as smokeless because of the supposed 83% nitrocelulose content, HOWEVER, it is the other 17% of it's content that makes it NOT smokeless. And, so there is no mistake here.....BH209 does indeed smoke.

Now, when some nummie decides to shoot some true smokeless in a gun marked black powder only without checking with the manufacturer first, and because he's read some of your assertions here, meaning you HV, and then gets a limb blown off and decides to find somebody to sue, I'll be happy to step to the head of the line to offer your above quote. Then we'll see who's hiding the truth. What you're preaching is dangerous. I don't care what you do with your guns and time as long as it doesn't have a chance to stain a nice web page like this when someone not so smart reads this crap in a public forum and decides that he'll give the smokeless a go in dad's old muzzy.

I said it before and I'll say it again. This crap does not in these pages.

 

[smokepolehall]

This thread being a few years old n the op has bought this hybrid. Its not a Muzzleloader, you can change words n such but it loads powder load from the breech. States that have a adopted other weapons into the no longer ML season, have only money they grab to guide them. They flip n flop which ever way the money flows. Its no longer about the hunters. This type of hybrid is good for someone who likes it, it does not bother me n i would never buy one or even shoot it.

 

[Hatchet Jack]

By definition the Nitro Rifle and system is not considered a muzzleloader. Even Wikipedia recognizes that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzleloader

 

[Hatchet Jack]

This is not a women.



This is not a Muzzleloader.

 

[HV-Muzzleloaders]

Here's the truth.

Every manufacturer of current muzzleloaders recognizes BH 209 as a suitable BLACK POWDER SUB WHEN and IF it is used in guns designed to handle it AND it is used within the parameters set forth by the gun makers AND the powder maker. Break action and bolt guns qualify as suitable. Plunger and side lock actions do not.

Another truth.... BH209 may by technical terms be seen by some as smokeless because of the supposed 83% nitrocelulose content, HOWEVER, it is the other 17% of it's content that makes it NOT smokeless. And, so there is no mistake here.....BH209 does indeed smoke.

Now, when some nummie decides to shoot some true smokeless in a gun marked black powder only without checking with the manufacturer first, and because he's read some of your assertions here, meaning you HV, and then gets a limb blown off and decides to find somebody to sue, I'll be happy to step to the head of the line to offer your above quote. Then we'll see who's hiding the truth. What you're preaching is dangerous. I don't care what you do with your guns and time as long as it doesn't have a chance to stain a nice web page like this when someone not so smart reads this crap in a public forum and decides that he'll give the smokeless a go in dad's old muzzy.

I said it before and I'll say it again. This crap does not in these pages.

When Thomas Edison invented the light bulb there were no doubt those who talked about the dangers of electricity. They cited someone killed by lightning as their proof. However, they ignored the many people killed when a house burned down due to an oil lamp being turned over in the house.

Hopefully, you do understand that those manufacturing my invention (the Self-Ejecting Muzzleloader Safety Cartridge) can carefully control the pressure by using the correct amount of a smokeless propellant with the right burn rate, in the same way a 12 gauge shotgun shell is produced. Have you ever taken a look at how thin a shotgun barrel is near the muzzle? What keeps the barrel from splitting if shotguns use smokeless powder? The amount of smokeless powder in the shotgun shell is matched to the load of shot in the shell to produce a safe pressure. No new product should ever be used unless it undergoes rigorous testing by an independent group of experts. This is how all of the Black Powder substitutes, like Pyrodex and BH209, were later confirmed to be safe when used in the proper manner. It is how modern shotgun shells were proven to be safe.

If you do not understand these facts, you are no different than those who said the lightbulb was a dangerous invention.

How many people said Pyrodex was not safe when it first came on the market? Were they later proven to be wrong? Do you know what happened to the man that invented Pyrodex? (Dan Pawlak) He was killed in a deflagration accident which occurred at one of the factories which produced Pyrodex.

https://randywakeman.com/theProblemsofBlackpowder.htm.

 

[smokepolehall]

When Thomas Edison invented the light bulb there were no doubt those who talked about the dangers of electricity. They cited someone killed by lightning as their proof. However, they ignored the many people killed when a house burned down due to an oil lamp being turned over in the house.

Hopefully, you do understand that those manufacturing my invention (the Self-Ejecting Muzzleloader Safety Cartridge) can carefully control the pressure by using the correct amount of a smokeless propellant with the right burn rate, in the same way a 12 gauge shotgun shell is produced. Have you ever taken a look at how thin a shotgun barrel is near the muzzle? What keeps the barrel from splitting if shotguns use smokeless powder? The amount of smokeless powder in the shotgun shell is matched to the load of shot in the shell to produce a safe pressure. No new product should ever be used unless it undergoes rigorous testing by an independent group of experts. This is how all of the Black Powder substitutes, like Pyrodex and BH209, were later confirmed to be safe when used in the proper manner. It is how modern shotgun shells were proven to be safe.

If you do not understand these facts, you are no different than those who said the lightbulb was a dangerous invention.

How many people said Pyrodex was not safe when it first came on the market? Were they later proven to be wrong? Do you know what happened to the man that invented Pyrodex? (Dan Pawlak) He was killed in a deflagration accident which occurred at one of the factories which produced Pyrodex.

https://randywakeman.com/theProblemsofBlackpowder.htm.

Your point is ? The hybrid is not a ML, its a type of breech loader

 

[CatamountRob]

Guy that lives up the road from me tried to market disposal toothbrushes. All that bacteria living in your brush and going back into your mouth every day can’t be good, or so he hypothesized. Probably some validity to that. He found a way to get them made cheap, super cheap and tried to get people to subscribe to a service to have them sent to their house.
Ever heard of them? Of course not, it flopped. Dentists can’t even get people to use their regular toothbrushes every day.

 

[MrTom]

When Thomas Edison invented the light bulb there were no doubt those who talked about the dangers of electricity. They cited someone killed by lightning as their proof. However, they ignored the many people killed when a house burned down due to an oil lamp being turned over in the house.

Hopefully, you do understand that those manufacturing my invention (the Self-Ejecting Muzzleloader Safety Cartridge) can carefully control the pressure by using the correct amount of a smokeless propellant with the right burn rate, in the same way a 12 gauge shotgun shell is produced. Have you ever taken a look at how thin a shotgun barrel is near the muzzle? What keeps the barrel from splitting if shotguns use smokeless powder? The amount of smokeless powder in the shotgun shell is matched to the load of shot in the shell to produce a safe pressure. No new product should ever be used unless it undergoes rigorous testing by an independent group of experts. This is how all of the Black Powder substitutes, like Pyrodex and BH209, were later confirmed to be safe when used in the proper manner. It is how modern shotgun shells were proven to be safe.

If you do not understand these facts, you are no different than those who said the lightbulb was a dangerous invention.

How many people said Pyrodex was not safe when it first came on the market? Were they later proven to be wrong? Do you know what happened to the man that invented Pyrodex? (Dan Pawlak) He was killed in a deflagration accident which occurred at one of the factories which produced Pyrodex.

https://randywakeman.com/theProblemsofBlackpowder.htm.

 

[HV-Muzzleloaders]

From the link on The Problems of Blackpowder...

"The most successful, well-known smoky replacement is Pyrodex, marketed for years as "the smokeless muzzleloading propellant." The Pyrodex patent application was filed on July 25, 1975. Pyrodex, developed by Daniel Pawlak and Michael Levenson, has not been without its problems. Dan Pawlak was killed in January 1977 when his powder plant exploded. The patent application was filed on July 25, 1975. So much for the safety of manufacture; it is a tragedy. Nevertheless, the harder-to-ignite Pyrodex is safer to handle from a consumer perspective. Hard enough to ignite that the "igniter pad" on Pyrodex pellets (made from Pyrodex RS) remains good old blackpowder to this day. Toxicity of Pyrodex persists-though no formal studies have been conducted. Perchlorate poisoning is a well-known issue, as monitored by the EPA."

.

 

[MrTom]

First off, I have plenty of smokeless reloading experience with several handgun and rifle cartridges along with thousands of rounds of shot shells. I am NOT unfamiliar with smokeless reloading or handling.

Second, you need to focus here: we're not talking about Edison or his electric light. We're not taking about homes that burned down because of oil lamps. We're not discussing black powder and water absorbtion. We're not talking about pyrodex production and explosions. We're not talking about shotguns and how thin their barrels are at the muzzle.....alll of these are immaterial and nothing but fluff to take the reader away from the issue here. We are talking about your casual insistence in using smokeless powders in black powder ONLY firearms. We are talking about your insistence that BH209 powder is a smokeless powder, which it is not.... below is a direct statement from the Hodgdon website's Blackhorn powder page. In the statement you'll notice that there is zero, none, nada, nein, nothing, about it being smokeless. And furthermore, on Hodgdon's website one can click on smokeless powders and find the same dialog referring to Blackhorn as a smokeless powder because its not listed as one. Blackhorn is listed in the "muzzleloading" powders section.

"Product Overview​

Blackhorn 209 is a low residue, high performance propellant made for muzzleloaders and black powder cartridges. It is engineered to consistently shoot at higher velocities and with greater accuracy than any other muzzleloader powder available today. Like most black powder and other muzzleloading substitutes, Blackhorn 209 should be loaded by volume and not by weight."

What you need to do is whatever it takes to get your "invention-copy" registered and in production for use in guns suitable to shoot it and keep this smokeless dialog OUT of black powder forums and conversations on this site, because your smokeless dialog is dangerous in black powder forums.

Apparently, you were impressed enough with that Firestick breech loader that you felt compelled to expand on it. That's fine and dandy in the proper venue. But please do take note of the Traditions gun shown in the picture above and much heavier breech area where the radical pressures develop.....its much thicker than the same area found on "modern" muzzleloading arms listed as Black Powder Only. Perhaps instead of justifying your crap and arguing here, you develop a gun to shoot your new found contraption, eh? Since Traditions has been tapped already you could try CVA. Have them work on the barrel issues at the same time.

You know where I stand on this, so I'm done with it.

 

[HV-Muzzleloaders]

We are talking about your insistence that BH209 powder is a smokeless powder, which it is not.... below is a direct statement from the Hodgdon website's Blackhorn powder page. In the statement you'll notice that there is zero, none, nada, nein, nothing, about it being smokeless.

You may know something about reloading, but if you knew anything about Chemistry you would know "Smokeless Powder" is made up of "Nitrocellulose".

https://www.britannica.com/technology/smokeless-powder
Blackpowder and the substitutes are made up of chemicals that act as a fuel (Charcoal, Sulfur, Sugar, etc. ), along with corrosive oxidizers (Nitrates, Perchlorates, etc.) which supply the Oxygen to the combustion reaction.

See the SDS sheet below, which confirms BH209 is 83% "Nitrocellulose". If you review the original patent for what later became BH209 you will see it is a hybrid powder made up mainly of Nitrocellulose, with Guanidine Nitrate and Potassium Perchlorate, and a few other chemicals added to it.

Once again, you are not basing your emotional responses upon reality.


https://blackhorn209.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/2022-Blackhorn-209-SDS.pdf

.

 

[bronko220002]

IMO its way to expensive to shoot on a regular basis and it takes all the fun out of muzzleloading as a sport/hobby.

 

[alternate]

The type of bp used doesn't matter. The gun is NOT a muzzle loader!

 

[smokepolehall]

You may know something about reloading, but if you knew anything about Chemistry you would know "Smokeless Powder" is made up of "Nitrocellulose".

https://www.britannica.com/technology/smokeless-powder
Blackpowder and the substitutes are made up of chemicals that act as a fuel (Charcoal, Sulfur, Sugar, etc. ), along with corrosive oxidizers (Nitrates, Perchlorates, etc.) which supply the Oxygen to the combustion reaction.

See the SDS sheet below, which confirms BH209 is 83% "Nitrocellulose". If you review the original patent for what later became BH209 you will see it is a hybrid powder made up mainly of Nitrocellulose, with Guanidine Nitrate and Potassium Perchlorate, and a few other chemicals added to it.

Once again, you are not basing your emotional responses upon reality.


https://blackhorn209.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/2022-Blackhorn-209-SDS.pdf

.

Sir why do you insist on this diatribe, about other powders that are n maybe used in a breech loader! I think you have become a troll. To those members that are reading this, make sure your State allows this to be a legal rifle during ML seasons.

 

[HV-Muzzleloaders]

I think you have become a troll.

Those that have to use ridicule and condemnation on any viewpoint have revealed their viewpoint for what is really is.

There is nothing wrong with having a difference of opinion with others here. Unfortunately, some of these discussions become urination matches not based on the facts.

.

 

[smokepolehall]

Those that have to use ridicule and condemnation on any viewpoint have revealed their viewpoint for what is really is.

There is nothing wrong with having a difference of opinion with others here. Unfortunately, some of these discussions become urination matches not based on the facts.

.

I said nothing about you that should bring on this type of response. You are trolling, you are not bringing anything valid to this subject. Now you are accusing me of becoming personal. So i am a person that is not going let someone else shift blame on me for my opinion about a breech loader. Get a life your happy about