400 yard elk muzzleloader

[ambushunter]

Not new to muzzleloaders, but has been a long time since I bought a new one. Currently running a CVA accura, whatever the first model that came out was. It's more accurate than some of my factory centerfire rifles.

Wanting a longer range muzzleloader capable of producing 1500lb of energy at 400 yards. I was thinking a Paramount, then found the knight peregrine, but can't find much user info out there yet. Then for the price of the paramount pro and the knight, I am considering just building one on a Rem 700 action.

Looking for others more experienced in this areas opinion.

 

[ElDiablo]

Are you able to shoot smokeless or will you have to shoot big loads of BH209?

I just went through the same process. I ended up building and shooting a smokeless capable Omega that Im comfortable with to 500 yards on elk. Shooting a 327 gr Parker Black Max at 2280 fps. That combo drops to 1500 ftlbs at about 575 yards. The bullet needs 1500 fps to expand and it hits that level right past 500 yards. This load is still at over 2000 ftlbs at 400 yds.

Personally I’d put something like an Omega, Encore or Rem 700 together myself that would be smokeless- capable.

 

[ambushunter]

Are you able to shoot smokeless or will you have to shoot big loads of BH209?

I just went through the same process. I ended up building and shooting a smokeless capable Omega that Im comfortable with to 500 yards on elk. Shooting a 327 gr Parker Black Max at 2280 fps. That combo drops to 1500 ftlbs at about 575 yards. The bullet needs 1500 fps to expand and it hits that level right past 500 yards. This load is still at over 2000 ftlbs at 400 yds.

Personally I’d put something like an Omega, Encore or Rem 700 together myself that would be smokeless- capable.

I am not sure of each state's rule on smokeless, but if I was to build one, It would be one that could shoot smokeless, and if I did hunt with it in a state that doesn't allow it, I would use a heavy dose of BH209.

 

[ENCORE50A]

I am not sure of each state's rule on smokeless, but if I was to build one, It would be one that could shoot smokeless, and if I did hunt with it in a state that doesn't allow it, I would use a heavy dose of BH209.

IMO, go full custom and be totally happy and not have to do it over.

 

[Philgumbo]

Not new to muzzleloaders, but has been a long time since I bought a new one. Currently running a CVA accura, whatever the first model that came out was. It's more accurate than some of my factory centerfire rifles.

Wanting a longer range muzzleloader capable of producing 1500lb of energy at 400 yards. I was thinking a Paramount, then found the knight peregrine, but can't find much user info out there yet. Then for the price of the paramount pro and the knight, I am considering just building one on a Rem 700 action.

Looking for others more experienced in this areas opinion.

I hate to say it, but I think you should try to get a hell of a lot closer to your game than 400 yards. That's an insanely long shot for most muzzle loaders. Get closer to your game; that's part of hunting.

 

[ElDiablo]

You really just have to run some different loads through a ballistic calculator. It becomes clear pretty quickly that to be effective on elk at long distance you’ve got to have a heavy, aerodynamic bullet going pretty fast. Pretty tough to get 1500 ftlbs of energy at 400 with anything less.

The other considerations are bullet construction, can you actually hit your target at that range (you probably want a dial-able scope) and is your rifle light enough to carry into the elk mountains. Anything over about 10-12 lbs is too heavy IMO.

Long range elk hunts are mostly later season hunts. Early season you can either call them to close range or get closer. Lots of late seasons, because of the terrain, you can’t get very close.

 

[ENCORE50A]

400yds isn't a problem, even with 120grs VOLUME of BH209. Now the shooter? Well, that might be a whole different story..............

From a 45cal, shooting a 350gr Arrowhead XLD, bullet to bore and using 120grs VOLUME of BH209, provides much more energy than 1500fpe at 400yds.

 

[ElDiablo]

What’s the min expansion velocity on that 350 xld?

 

[ENCORE50A]

What’s the min expansion velocity on that 350 xld?

I have no clue.

 

[txhunter58]

I would agree that closer shots is the goal on rut hunts in Sept. but can use a longer range Muzzy in any rifle season too

 

[ElDiablo]

I have no clue.

I’d be surprised if it didn’t need substantially more than 1500 fps. So probably wouldn’t work at 400.

 

[ENCORE50A]

I’d be surprised if it didn’t need substantially more than 1500 fps. So probably wouldn’t work at 400.

I would have no fear of it not working at 400yds. A lot of people use that bullet and long range.

Dennis at Fury is making up some special 350gr bullets for me to test this next spring. They'll work too

And if the guy goes FULL CUSTOM, he can send them a LOT faster, 2,300fps+ with BH209. In a full custom and shooting SML, he can send the 350gr bullets at 3,000fps easily.

 

[idahoron]

What’s the min expansion velocity on that 350 xld?

This comment should not be taken lightly. He is right on point. I have tested my bullets to yardages I would expect to use them. The right thing to do especially since it's an animal that can take pretty solid hits then take the hunter for a trip on the "trail of tears" trying to catch up and finish it off.

 

[ENCORE50A]

You can kill any N.A. animal with a marble. Proper shot placement and sufficient velocity is what's required.
Millions of animals have been harvested with just a plain round ball with no expansion whatsoever.

That said, nearly 1,600fps and nearly 1,900fpe shooting BH209, with proper shot placement, you'll have a full freezer. At 2960fps, if the poster goes complete custom, there's not an animal in North America that can't be hunted with the 350gr. Many, are using only the 300gr XLD's and harvesting elk at much further distances and I'll just leave it at that.

I will say that most who frequent this site should never be shooting 400yds at an animal.

 

[ENCORE50A]

I’d be surprised if it didn’t need substantially more than 1500 fps. So probably wouldn’t work at 400.

We can compare...........

Take for instance the Parker Black Max, a bullet with a BC very close to the XLD. The Black Max has a .028" jacket and expands fully down to 1,500fps.
The XLD has a .021" jacket and comparable BC. The thinner jacket should allow for even lower velocity expansion. If that's true, then the XLD will certainly perform at 1,600fps.

 

[ElDiablo]

I’d like to see some ballistic gelatin data. That aluminum tip may make a big difference as well.

 

[idahoron]

You can kill any N.A. animal with a marble. Proper shot placement and sufficient velocity is what's required.
Millions of animals have been harvested with just a plain round ball with no expansion whatsoever.

That said, nearly 1,600fps and nearly 1,900fpe shooting BH209, with proper shot placement, you'll have a full freezer. At 2960fps, if the poster goes complete custom, there's not an animal in North America that can't be hunted with the 350gr. Many, are using only the 300gr XLD's and harvesting elk at much further distances and I'll just leave it at that.

I will say that most who frequent this site should never be shooting 400yds at an animal.

I'm curious. How many elk have you killed?
For what it's worth. I'm not apposed to shooting elk with a muzzleloader at 400 yards if the equipment is right.

 

[ENCORE50A]

I'm curious. How many elk have you killed?
For what it's worth. I'm not apposed to shooting elk with a muzzleloader at 400 yards if the equipment is right.

Absolutely zero elk. Over 400 whitetails. But what does that mean? Proper shot placement on ANY animal is the key.

I’d like to see some ballistic gelatin data. That aluminum tip may make a big difference as well.

I'll be happy to send you a couple..................

 

[ElDiablo]

Absolutely zero elk. Over 400 whitetails. But what does that mean? Proper shot placement on ANY animal is the key.



I'll be happy to send you a couple..................

I’ve got a few. I’ll get some gelatin and do some testing.

Elk are tough - nothing like a whitetail.

 

[idahoron]

Absolutely zero elk. Over 400 whitetails. But what does that mean?

I have killed 23 head of elk. With everything from bows, muzzleloaders and Rifles. I have seen at least twice that many shot by friends and family.
Whitetails no matter how big they are share nothing in common with elk when it comes to knocking them over. Elk are not big whitetails.
I killed this cow with a muzzleloader. This cow was shot in what most hunters would call proper shot placement.
I'm sure the guy said he hit it in the "boiler room" or "perfect" shot.
What I'm saying is, elk can take a pile if lead from magnum centerfire rifles and still stay on their feet.