50 Disc Elite and bh209

[ShawnT]

tndeer,

I got out this Sunday Morning to shoot for a little while with the 50 Disc Elite, bh209 and the Non-FPJ breech plug. I first started out with the same CCI 209 primers and same bottle of bh209 I used last time at the range. Had several hang fires that time, some were very slight and at least 3 were pretty bad. I started with 100 grains of Bh209 and a Barnes 290 gn TMZ with supplied Yellow Sabot. These load pretty hard in the bore of this Disc Elite. Cleaned the bore and fired 3 primers to make sure it was dried out, before loading. Shot 3 rounds and had 3 hang fires even with the NON-FPJ plug! :shock: I did not expect that. So I tried 3 more but I switched Primers to a Federal 209A. No hang fires Ignition seemed instant. I wound up shooting about 26 rounds and did not have any hang fires when using the non-fpj plug and the Federal 209A's. I had tried to get some CCI 209M's but did not find any locally. The Non-fpj plug did limit the blowback quite a bit, but It did not completely eliminate it. There was still just a slight amount in the action and one small mark on the bottom of the scope that wiped off, but much better than with the FPJ plug. I still get a plating of carbon that is pretty tough to remove. Seems to need to be scrubbed off with a Brush or scrapped off. I removed the plug and found that powder side of the plug could be wiped off with a Wet Ones towel and was shiny again! That's a nice thing!

I do notice that the TMZ loads hard on the first round and then it varies after that, had some easier but with jerky motion on the way down and some load hard. I tried 2 with a harvester crushrib sabot. Both loaded very easily, gave no hang fire, but KeyHoled in the target at 50 yards! :shock: Guess that combo don't work. I also found the 2 sabots down range and they were Shredded! I Tried a dry patch just to see if it hit any crud, but it when all the way to the breech plug smoothly. I also tried loading with out swabing beteen shots and swabing with just a dry patch up and down one stroke, didn't seem to matter. The debris on the patches just looked more or less like black soot, that is why I tried just a dry patch. Eitherway it did not seem to have any effect on accuracy

As for the Accuracy I have not been pleased yet with this rifle so far. Best groups were with some 215 grain PR QT's over either 100 or 110 grains of Bh209 and groups were about 1 1/4 " but that was at 50 yards so I was not too happy with that. I have not tried any other powder yet and this rifle is new to me. I hope to get it figured out soon but it looks like it is going to be finicky in what it likes. I pretty much shot up one bottle of Bh 209 in it and hopefully I can get something out of it soon otherwise it will be pretty costly at the price of this powder. Hope to get to shoot some more over the holiday weekend if it don't get too hot or Rains.

For those of you that are shooting BH209 what pour top are you using on the BH bottle or are you using a flask? I have one that snaps onto Pyro bottles Ok but it is really too big for the BH bottle (just drops on and falls off). I have to put about 3 or 4 wraps of tape around the bottle to get it to snap on.

ShawnT

 

[Lee 9]

ShawnT
I use the same pour top that I used with 777.
A couple of thoughts, I had to use the next tighter sabot to get good results started with Crush Rib [what I used with 777 and went to MMP HPH24 which is what I now use] also found the it is most consistant with a lot of wad pressure I lean on that ramrod. Lee

 

[Panhandle]

The Tmz's won't work with Crushed Rib Sabots. Tmz's have a boatail designed bullet and don't fit any other sabot except for the supplied yellow.

 

[ShawnT]

After the second bullet Keyholed I saw that the Yellow Sabots were made for the boatails. Thats why I did not shoot anymore of them. As for a next tighter sabot, I am not sure you could get one for that bullet tighter in this bore. I also shot Knight Lead 310 gn in the Black sabot and I had a heck of a time getting them down the bore they are so tight. It did not seem to like them either. I was thinking of getting a box of the new TMZ with blue ez-load sabots and seeing if they load with more consistant pressure.

Thanks,

ShawnT

 

[Busta]

ShawnT,

The new Knight PBT/Barnes TMZ blue EZ Load sabots mic up at .501" with bullet, the old yellow ones mic up at .506 with bullet. The new blues went down my .502" NEF barrel almost as easy as a slip fit conical, but I still had instant ignition. If your bore is .5005, they might work fine, and I know they will load easy.

 

[ShawnT]

Thanks Busta,

I am going to have to get some on order. But won't have them for this weekend. Hope they shoot well from this rifle, they look like great medicine for deer.

Shawn T

 

[ShawnT]

I did not get the new Knight Barnes TMZ with EZ-load sabots yet. I still went out to the range twice this last weekeknd to work with this new Elite. I picked up some CCI 209 Mag primers and some Shockwaves, the 250 bonded in superglide sabots and also the 300 in the standard black sabots. I worked with BH209 and some 777. I spent friday working with just the Bh 209 and Fed 209A primers and loads from 90 to 120 grains. Groups were not good and only once did I even have one I would actually call a group, it was about 1" at 50 yards, so it was nothing to write home about. At the end of the day I was a bit frustrated.

I had also taken my MK95 Magnum Elite and traded off so nothing was getting too hot. I wanted to shoot the MK95 for a couple of reasons. First I had just got the stock back from having it painted. Next I wanted to try out some 300 Grain Dead Centers that I got from Tom. I usually shoot 2 50 grain Pyro Pellets and a 310 grain Knight lead Hp and knight sabot, or A Swift A-Frame 300 grain in Black Knight sabot. Both of those shoot to the same Poi and will shoot 1" to 1 1/2" at 100 yrds if I hang onto it right. Shot some of the lead hps and every thing was shooting as normal. Loaded the same load except used the 300 gn Dead Centers, The MK95 loves them too! Thanks Tom!. The other thing I wanted to try was to see if this rifle would work with the BH209. I only shot 5 rounds of the Swift A-Frame as it has a tighter sabot than the Dead Centers. I loaded 100 grains of Bh209 with the A-Frame and set that off with a CCI 250 Mag Rifle primer. I had no hang fires and had instant ignition with all 5 rounds. The First 3 cut the same hole at 50 yards and was barely under 1/2" center to center like a small 3 leaf clover. The 4th and 5th shots went vertical on each shot but was still just under the 1" mark at 50 yds. I'm fairly confident that had I not shot them about as fast as I could load and shoot, the group would have been smaller. Looks Like the MK95 Magnum Elite is another rifle that works well with Bh209!

Back to the Elite. I cleaned the rifle out good and used the last of My Pryo Pellets, I had enough for 4 shots with 100 grains each load. I also used the last of the Swift A-Frames I had with me too. First 2 shots cut each other. The next 2 were just about 1/2" above and again cut the same hole. :huh?: So I tried all day Saturday to get some more Pyro but wound up with a bottle of 777 FF. Back to the Range Sunday. Groups were still nothing special and did not seem to be consistant with loads from 90 grains up to 120. Shock waves, 250 TMZ with Yellow Sabot, Swift A-Frames. I had only 2 groups that showed some promise, it was 90 grains of 777 and the 300grain Dead Centers, 2 Groupls were about 1" and 1 1/2 inch at 50 yards. I really expected this rifle to shoot better than it has.

When I bought this rifle I knew I would have to shorten the LOP to fit me. I got a second stock for it and cut that one down to 13 1/2" LOP to fit me. It fits me ok but am starting to wonder if most of the problem is with me. I even tried a different scope ( 2 Leupold 4X12's) and had the same results. I even tried a couple of rounds with the un-altered stock. Still same. I tried the CCI Mag primers with the Bh209. Non-FPJ and FPJ plugs. The MK95 does not have a cheek peice on it and I never really liked a stock that had much of one on it. They usually don't fit me well when or if they are cut down to fit me. So I am starting to think that It is just me trying to figure out how to shoot this rifle. I am also thinking of grinding off or down the cheek peice to get rid of the extra bulk in the butt stock and see if that helps. Sort of wishing I had just waited and got an NULA.

ShawnT

 

[jsteurrys]

Have you floated the barrel yet or verifed it is floated? Did you check to make sure that the cantilever lug is making even contact with the bottom of the stock? Are you shooting with or without the ramrod in place? I noticed with mine that the ramrod pushed the barrel up when installed and the cantilever lug was only making contact on one side. Let me know what you find.

 

[ShawnT]

jsteurrys,

The barrel is mostly free floating back to within about 3 inches before the action. This is the same with the other stock I have for it too. I know that the cantilever is touching because I bedded that area with Devcon as it was only touching on the rear of the lug before bedding. All shooting has been done without the ramrod in the rifle. I may spend some more time sanding the barrel channel to see if fully free floating will help.

Thanks,

ShawnT

 

[jsteurrys]

I saw a post a few weeks back that they floated the barrel all the way to the lug. I believe it was the guys shooting the .45s at the time.

 

[big6x6]

I'm don't really understand why you are having hangfire with the Disc Elite using BH209.. I have a Long Range Hunter and a Disc Elite and have no hangfires when using either the non-FPJ plug or the CONCAVE FPJ plug. Which FPJ plug are you using? Is the powder side of that plug concave or convex?

Concave(left) or convex(right)

 

[ShawnT]

Big 6X6.

The FPJ plug was the concave plug in your picture on the left. I had several hang fires using CCI 209 primers (Standard). I did not worry too much at first since I had understood that some may have had some problems with that plug but not with the Non FPJ. I ordered the Non FPJ plug and still had some "Delay" fires (new Non FPJ Plug looks like your pic on the right). I call them delays because they were just ever so slight but were there, so it was better but not perfect. I picked up some of the Federal 209As and had no hang fires with the Non FPJ plug at all. I have since picked up a pack of CCI 209M's and they also did not give any hangfires either. I have not tried the FPJ plug again with either the Fed or CCI 209M's yet and the BH209, But have used it ok with all primers and 777. I also made sure to keep the fire channel clean with torch tip cleaner and 1/8" drill bit.

Most of the Bullet Sabots were pretty tight in this rifle. There were only a couple that I sort of expected it from and that was a 44 cal Dead Center in Green Sabot (Loads extreamly Easy) and a couple I put in Harvester Crush ribs, again too easy loading. I have tried some 777 and am still not thrilled with the Accuracy so I am now pretty sure that the accuaracy problems are not powder related.

I am open to any tips or ideas.

Thanks!

ShawnT

 

[hunterken]

Disc Elite

Shawn. I have a .50 Disc Elite and have tried every sabot made for accuracy. I have settled on the 220 Dead Centers and the 300 g yellow EZ glide Shockwaves. The 300 grain Hornaday XTP/mags with the short MMP black sabots also shoot reliably good groups. These are all shot using 84.5 grain FF 777 weighed charges and Winchester 209 -blue box primers. I found the CCI and Federals to not be as accurate. I also like the domed breechplug with 777 better than the concave plug.
You should get 1 to 1.5 " groups at 100 yards if your rifle is at all like mine. The above bullets all load easily.
Reguardless of what Knight says, the Barnes bullets just do not shoot as accurately for me.
I just tried the Blackhorn with the same concave FPJ breech plug, 100 grain Blackhorn, with 220 Dead Centers that load easily, and both CCI blue 209 primers and the Winchester std 209 and I got severe delayed ignition. It seems as if the non-FPJ breechplug you tried was not the answer. Maybe I need to try the CCI mag or Federal primers. I had some but gave them away once I found they didn't work as well with 777. Any suggestions? Ken

 

[ShawnT]

Hunterken,

Thanks for the load suggestions. I don't have any Dead Centers that light but will try to pick some up. I have only gone down as low as 90 grains with the 777. I have a laundry list of bullets I have tried, but I had wanted to try to get the Barnes 250 TMX to work. My Knight MK95 never would shoot any Barnes Bullet that I tried either. Last trip out the first 2 groups (3 shot) were in the 1/2 to 3/4 range at 50 yards. After that they got pretty poor again, but the heat rose and the wind speed increased with it. I did not load fast and intentionally waited between shots. But the first groups were the best when the barrel was completely cold and wind was light. I did not make it out this weekend to work on it.

I did get reliable ignition with the Blackhorn and the NFPJ plug, but had to go to either Fed209A or CCI Mag primer. If your Dead Centers are the 44cal size with the green sabot, don't bother, they are too loose. I have not tried those 2 primers in the FPJ plug with BH209. The last groups I just mentioned were with 100 and 110 gns of 777 and a 250 grain shockwave, this is also the first time I have used 777. I did try some of the new Knight/Barnes TMZ with Blue EZ-Load sabots. They load nice but I did not see anything promising out of them yet. I might pick up some Plain Pyrodex RS or Select to see if that helps. This thing looks like it is going to be one of the picky ones. It is frustrating but can also be fun trying to figure it out.

I do have one variable that is still in the back of my mind with this rifle. These and the extremes have a pretty tall cheek peice on them. I am not a tall guy and 13 1/2 LOP on some centerfires is a bit long for me. These are 14" and I have to cut the stocks down some to get them to fit me comfortably. That moves the cheek peice back closer to the shoulder. I am sort of afraid that it is causing me to not shoot it consistantly from the bags. I am concidering removing the cheek peice from this stock to see if that gets me some better consistancy in gun handling, even thought I don't really notice it on the bench. I try to pay attention to see I can see that as a cause, but have not so far. I had one of these before and gave up due to the fit, but I got this one with 2 original new stocks. THat Is why I got it, so I could cut around on one and leave the other one original.

Thanks,

ShawnT

 

[OIDG]

I wanted to chime in with my range report on my new Knight Long Range Hunter .52 and BH209. I tried 120grains with the Red Hot 375s at the range today and had 5 terrible hang fires out of 6 shots with the first out of a clean barrel/plug being the only to not have a delay. I only had the FPJ plug with me and was using the Winchester 209A primers. I'm going to try the Federals and the NFPJ next as a few of you have described to see if I can get any better results. I also wanted to note that I got pretty bad blowback with the FPJ system which left quite a bit of residue in the bolt area. Is this pretty common for the LRH?

Big6x6, what primers are you using with your LRH/BH209 combo?

 

[OIDG]

With the hang fires I was receiving, I did a little research through Knight and even went as far as to email Toby Bridges to see if he was experiencing the same with his .52 disc extreme. He said that Knight has recently changed their Flash hole on the standard DISC Extreme (and LRH) breech plug from .035 on older models to .028 - .029 on the newer models and that a much hotter primer was the answer with BH209. I went yesterday to the range with a fresh box of Federal 209As and had zero hang fires on 20 shots.

Accuracy was a different problem all together, though. The best I could get was a 2.5" group at 100 with the majority being in the 4-5" range. For a $700 muzzleloader, I thought I would get better than that. I guess mine is going to be picky as well.

 

[Lee 9]

Black Horn 209 is sure bringing out any little problems some guns have.
Of course it sure brings out the accuracy in others, in my light TC guns it sure kicks in direct relationship to that extra velocity too. Lee

 

[ShawnT]

I have not tried the Fed 209A and the CCI mag primers with the FPJ yet. I have been too busy to get out and try some more loads in the elite. I only had hangfire and delay fires using both plugs and the CCI standard primers. I did try a few of the CCI mags and several Fed 209A using the NFPJ plug and had no hangfires with the bh209 as long as I used a tight sabot. The last loads I was trying were using 777 FF from 90 to 125 grains but still no luck. I spent quite a bit of time on the stock to make sure it is floated back to the lug and even bedded the lug to make sure it is sitting on the lug completely (it was not before). Still no luck. The last couple loads that were not too bad were using either 100 or 110 grains of 777 ff and a Hornady 250SST in LowDrag Sabot. They shot about 1 to 1 1/2 inch at 50 yards. I think that it should shoot better than that. I did have one group earlier on with 300 grain Swift A-Frame and 2 Pyrodex pellets. That group was shot on a warm barrel and the first 2 shots cut out the same hole and the next 2 also cut a hole but about 3/4" higher. My MK95 will do the same thing when the barrel is too warm. I ran out of the pellets and no one local had any at the time so I was not able to try the pellets again. But they should be getting some in soon.

Does anyone know if there is a difference in 2 regular Pyrodex 50 grain pellets verses say 100 grains Pyrodex RS/Select, or 7772f Etc? Just curious.

ShawnT

 

[Underclocked]

Wondering if you can see daylight through that breech plug that is giving you hangfires? I have a brand spankin' new non-FPJ plug here that only allows a tiny hint of light through. Blowing it out didn't help and neither did a thin wire. There is something hung up in there. My other non-FPJ plugs allow a nice, neat circle of light to pass through.

Don't think it would be likely with both your plugs, but something to check. Is there any possibility of some lube in there that you are not removing before loading?

 

[ShawnT]

Not sure about the other guys, but mine is clean. I clean the Primer side with 1/8" drill bit by hand and use torch tip cleaners on the smaller Breech side. I pulled and checked it each time I had a hangfire and could see light through it. The only problem I ran into with the NFPJ plug was that after a few shots the primers would not come out easily. I had to rap on the side of the stock to get them to fall out and after a couple of more would have to remove the bolt and clean the adapter. It became quite annoying. :|

ShawnT