50 Disc Elite and bh209

[hunterken]

FPJ and Blackhorn

I finally got some CCI M primers- the hotter ones -and with the concave FPJ brrech plug cleaned out really good. Shot a dozen shots with no hang fires- hurrah. I shot the shockwave super glide 300g, 300/310g lead Knight lead bullets with black sabots, and 220g Dead Centers. I used 74.5 grains by weight of Buckhorn. The bad news is that all those bullets shot well in my Disc Elite .50 with 777, but the best group was 3" at 100 yards yesterday vs. 1.0 to 1.5" at 100 yards with 777. I'm not sure that Buckhorn is worth the effort. It took a year to come up with good loads of 777. The plus to Buckhorn was that I did not swab between shots and loading was not a problem. I got some Federal primers I'll try today with the plastic jackets and concave plug. My initial trials with this plug and looser fitting sabots did not go well- lots of hangfires-, so maybe my breechplug wasn't as clean as I though, or maybe the looser fitting sabots were the issue, or the Winchester primers weren't hot enough. This all seems like a lot of trouble just to get no swab loads....777 goes off all the time! I don't understand why the convex breechplug with the smaller flame hole and longer distance thru the plug would work at all in the non FPJ breechplug. Guess I try the convex FPJ plug next with the hotter primers. In the past I had ignition problems with 777 pellets when using the weaker primers, so went to 777 powder, then never any problems.

 

[ShawnT]

Hunterken,

What loads of the 777 (2F?) were you shooting in the elite with the Shockwaves and lead 310's. I shoot that Knight lead 310 in my MK95, it absolutely loves them and they are like a BIG hammer on Deer. :wink:

I am planning to try some Pyrodex pellets in my elite tomorrow if the weather holds, supposed to be Tstorms here tomorrow late morn early afternoon. I did not shoot lower than 90 grains of BH209, maybe I need to shoot lower too. Don't know, but am looking for something that shoots before I switch back to working with BH209.

ShawnT

 

[hunterken]

777

Shawn, I get really good results with 2F 777 powder. I weigh the charges. My best loads are 84.5 grains by weight, which is 110 to 115 grains by volume with the 220 dead centers and 300g super glide shock waves. 300 g Hornady XTP's with the short black MMP sabot or the Harvestor black crushrib sabot are very consistent shooting. The 220 dead centers and 300g shockwaves will shoot 1.5" at 150 yards and cut the same hole at 100 yards with Winchester blue standard 209 primers). A spit patch is necessary between shots and aids in loading also. I jus shot 3/4 of a box ( maybe 30 shots) of Blackhorn 209 this afternoon with the concave FPJ brrechplug. Conclusions: no hang fires with CCI M primers; the breech plug was easy to remove even after all that shooting. I shot all my favorite bullet combos that worked well with the 777 as above, plus I tried 285 g. Barnes with the yellow sabot and 250g shockwave super glides. I tried from 100 to 110 g by volume ( I actually weighed the charges as 68 g and 73.5 g. Even tried 78 grains by weight. Results: sucked. Best group at 100 yards 2". Also noted that the breech area of my .50 Disc Elite was the dirtiest I ever seen and the breech plug was so black I thought I'd never get it clean. Clean-up was worse than with 777. I was able to shoot all day and only cleaned the barrel half way thro the session. I shot two shots with the Federal 209A primers and they also fired ok, although the impact point varied from the CCI M primers. I also noted that with 68 g (weighed) charge, the bullets impacted several inches lowed than expected. When I went up to 73.5 g by wt. (approx. 110 g. by volume), the bullets impacted 2" higher. A higher charge of 78 g. was about the same, so there must be a velocity drop off there somewhere. I don't have a chrono. So, after shooting all morning my conclusions are: Plusses for Blackhorn: can be shot without cleaning between shots and will ignite with the FPJ in the Knight Disc Elite .50 with a hot (CCI M) primer. Downsides: it does not shoot as well in my gun as 2F 777; the primer residue was much worse with Buckhorn. It costs more and is less available. I probably spent $75 in powder and bullets today and have a bottle of Blackhorn left to play with, but I think if I want to shoot accurately and be able to ignite it with the domed breech plug(less blowback) and use any primer I want (the Winchester seems to be the most reliable for me with 777) and not worry about the shot failing to ignite- 777 powder is the way to go. The only downside to me is the spit patch between shots. But having shot 3 caribou, a moose, an elk and 2 deer with 777 and the above combo of bullets and powder (the most 777 2 F I use is that 84.5 grains weighed- killed them all)- I don't think it is a problem. So Shawn, shoot whatever works for you. To me, the Buckhorn has a few advantages and and equal # of downsides. I have several other bullets weights in the Dead Center that I want to try with 777 and see if they will shoot as good, but I really like the 220 dead centers for easy loading and good shooting. If I need a heavier bullet, the 300g. Shockwave superglides load as easy and shoot as well- they just drop more as the yardage increases. Ken

 

[hunterken]

powder weights.

Shawn, in case you didn't see it, there was a thread on measuring powder by weight and volume. Results predictably were all over the map. I just chose a middle ground to get the weights/volumes I used. I do think weighing charges helps improve groups sizes. Also, switching primers from one time to the next will screw up your results. It seems to me they all impact to a different spot, so pick one brand and stick with that one to cut variation. Winchester blue are mild and will ignite pyrodex and 777.

http://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/phpBB ... php?t=9200

 

[ShawnT]

Ken,

Thanks for the report on your loads. I also saw the same Fouling in the action area. I actually use a small round stainless brush dipped in Butches Bore Shine to clean it out, I just got some brass tooth brushes that worked ok. Surprizingly I can clean the breech side of the plug with just a Wet-ones towel. I also think that with the BH 209 I get more plug grease pushed back into the action. I stopped shooting the BH209 in the elite and switched over to 777 (Wanted Pyrodex but everyone was out at the time) just to see if the powder was the problem. This is a new Elite that I picked up, but it is a "New old Stock" rifle that has a single digit serial number. :shock: I did not have very good results with 777 2F either, but they were better than BH 209. I plan to try some Pyrodex pellets this weekend if the weather holds. I have several bullets from 250 to 300 grain to try.

I was also quite surprized to see that my old MK95 Magnum Elite with a Rifle primer ignition worked just fine with the BH209. I do use CCI Magnum Rifle Primers in it anyway with the Speer 38 Spl plastic Cases. It does split the base of most cases (I never reuse them anyway) but it shot great, no ignition problems at all and grouped very well. I shot 6 rounds in a nice small group of about 1/2" at 50 yards, 100 Grains By Volume BH 209 and a 300 grain Swift A-Frame with the supplied Black Sabot.

Thanks again,

ShawnT

 

[Lee 9]

ShawnT
It really does not sound like your problem is powder related look at the button for nicks or scratches ,look at the end of the rifling to see if the bevel is on dead center. Check the mounts and rings and try a different scope to be sure the reticule in the scope is not loosing the POA. Lee

 

[ShawnT]

Lee,

I'm not convinced that my problem is powder related either. I have had 2 Leupold scopes on the rifle too. I may have a stock fit problem but am just trying to eliminate every thing one thing at a time. Not sure what "Button" you are referring too. Thanks.

ShawnT

 

[ShawnT]

Well guys, went to the range Saturday and Sunday to spend a little more time with the elite. I have read on here MANY times that a lot of you Weigh your powder charges with a scale. I had thought ok that makes since if you are fine tuning for accuracy in your groups. Well this is one of those times where you read something several times but it just did not sink in. I guess I can be as stubburn as a mule sometimes. On Friday HunterKen actually mentioned it to me in a post above. SO I sat down Friday evening and threw several charges of 777 2f and weighed them on my Dillon Electronic Scale. I was in for a big surprize! I have an old Brass measure that I have had for about 28 years. I usually just slowly fill it till to gets flush to the top and dump down the bore. When I weighed the charges I found that I my charges varied as much a 6.0 grains! :shock: I could not beleive they were off by that much and I even had a couple that went 9 grains! I dug out another brass measure and found that it was the same way but the markings on it seemed to run about 3 grains higher than the older measure. I do not remember the manufacture of the measures, too long ago. I have been shooting pellets for the last 10 years and have not used loose at all in that time.

So I weighed 8 charges and averaged them and found that 100 grains by volume equaled 77 grains by weight and 110gn V = 85 gnW and 120 gnV = 88 gnW. This was with my scale, Measure and about the last 1/2 lb of 777 I had. I then Weighed out 4 charges at 77 gnW and 3 charges at 85 gnW and took them to the range saturday. I set up a target a 50 yards, I also brought a .22 to rotate with so I would not heat up the elite too much. I cleaned and fired two standard CCI primers through the FPJ plug. Then decided to fire 2 fouling shots with the 77 gnW charge with a Hornady 250 sst in Low Drag red sabot. Both shots were almost touching and just had a sliver of paper between them. I shot another and it was just under the others and touching! :shock: :huh?: So now I'm wondering if that was my whole problem all along. I spit patched between all 3 shots. Next I loaded the same 77 gnW (I had took My scale with me) and shot 3 shots with the Knight/Barnes USS PBT in EZ-Load Blue Sabot. Again all 3 shots shot a clover leaf and all bullets touching! after some cooling time, I tried the same load again and shot 6 rounds (load and fire about as fast as I could load them) and they cut a hole a quarter would cover with the last shot dropping about 3/4" out of the group. I had leaned into the rifle on the last shot and knew it would be out but it was in line to have been right in the middle of the group. I was pretty wound up by the last shot and messed it up. Let it cool for about 45 minutes and then tried the same bullet with the 3 85 gnW loads and it was again 3 shots in a nice clover leaf with all 3 shots cutting out the same hole.

I had very similar results on Sunday morning. I tried the 84.5gnW that Ken uses with the Barnes PBT and also the Hornady in 250 grain and some Barnes 290 PBT. The rifle did not group the 290 all that well. I had also tried a 300gn Swift A-Frame and 2 pellets and after 5 shots it also was not that great. The first goup with the 250 PBT was 3 shots and the hole looked like one hole with 3 bumps on it! This Elite definitley seems to like the 250s better. I was also plesantly surprized that it also seemed to like the 250 Knight/Barnes PBT over the Hornady sst. I suppose that the low drag sabot may have contributed to that as it loaded a good bit easier.

I did have a couple shots pop up on Sunday and I am pretty sure that is due to a heavy trigger pull on the rifle. I plan to adjust it before next range session. I ran out of the Barnes bullets and 777 and will have to order some more. I think I will also do a bit of tweeking with the 777, and then work some with the BH 209 and see if it will shoot now that I have seen some consistancy. I think that the rifle is going to definitely be a keeper. 8)

Thanks for all the input guys!

ShawnT

 

[hunterken]

range work

ShawnT- congratulations on getting some good groups. It's a good rifle! It's strange how one gun (like yours) will like the 250g bullets and others(like mine) like the 300g bullets - in general. Try the super glide (yellow sabot) 250g. Shockwaves and see what you think. It will be interesting now that you've gotten the 777 to shoot decently to try the Blackhorn 209. I could not get the Blackhorn to approach the accuracy I was getting with the 777. But, since I have a bottle left, I'll continue to fool with it and see if something emerges. BTW, the convex breechplug has less blowback than the concave one and keeps the breech a little cleaner. I also think it shoots a little bit better than the standard concave breechplug- but that is fine tuning. Also the primers affect the group size. Good luck and keep reporting! Ken

 

[ShawnT]

Ken,

It is sometimes amazing at just how different rifles of the same make and model can be. My MK95 also shows a definite preference for 300 and 310 grain bullets. I have only had 2 "Lighter" bullets shoot well, but not quite as good, in it. So it gets either a Lead Knight 310 or the Swift A-Frame 300, it loves them both and shoots them to the same POI. I just got some 300 Dead Centers a little while back from Grouse and it likes them too. After getting the groups I did I had run out of new Plastic Jackets and reused a few. I do have the NFPJ plug and cleaned the rifle and switched to that plug late morning yesterday. Using the same Standard CCI primer my groups opened up again to about 1" or so, consistant groups just not as tight. I thought that was a bit odd. I did notice when cleaning the plugs that the convex NFPJ plug has a smaller flame channel than the concaved FPJ plug. I might try that plug again with the Federal or CCI mag primer next time to see if it tightens back up, I was saving those for the BH209.

I am not too crazy about the NFPJ kit I have. It is very hard to get the primer out of the rifle. Some times I just have to take the bolt out. I think that the bolt adapter is made with a very tight recess for the primer. CCI primers will drive you nuts trying to get them out. The Federals will come out, first few will fall out then the next will come out with a slight wrap on the side of the stock. Then you have to remove the bolt and clean the adapter with a brush. I have not measured them, but I suspect that the CCI primer cups have a slightly larger rim diameter. I am still looking around for some Winchester 209s (I seem to see that a lot of the guys here have good luck with them) but no one around seems to carry them, or are out and have not received a new shippment yet. I don't want to buy them in bulk until I figure out what the rifle likes best. So Far CCI and Federals are the most popular in the area. Using the FPJ may cost more, but I would like them for hunting better. I think it would be easier to handle them in the cold with gloves on. After I get the rifle shooting the way I want it to, I won't shoot it as often so the cost is not really a factor.

The Barnes with the Yellow Sabot was one of the first I did try, but did not have any left. I plan to order some more of the 250 EZ-Loads but I might get a pack of the ones with the yellow sabot too. I know Busta had great luck with those. The Blue EZ-Loads fit real nice in this bore not too tight and not too loose, so they might be hard to beat.

I do have some shockwaves but they have the black sabot and shot just OK. Those I have no trouble finding locally even the superglides. I can get them at Dick's Sporting goods. I am a little leary of the 250 Shockwave as I heard some say they can come apart pretty easy or a deers shoulders. Have you found that to be true?


ShawnT