Accuracy or Velocity? Wisdom Requested.

[USAF Ret]

does it really matter how fast the bullet goes if you can't hit what you aim at?
Always go for accuracy if you keep after it you may become accustomed to the higher powder charge

Yeah, I think with just that 3/4" difference and not going past 150, it was an on the fence call. 2" is still easily minute of deer to 150. But, knock down power is a factor. Just needed smart folks to weigh in. More accurate lighter load is what I will go with, although I am going to test 90 grains (v) to see if there is a happy medium.

 

[rangerod]

I'll always take accuracy over velocity. Of course you need to find out what you're confidence level is at a particular maximum distance. Trying 90v could give you a better group than 80v or 100v.I've always felt confidence level is a really big factor.

 

[bronko220002]

I'd say shoot whatever you want. Either bullet with either charge will kill a deer.
That being said one group does not make a trend especially with only 3 shots.
I shoot 3 shot groups as a guide for a load but the do it again to validate - in effect shooting a 6 shot group.

 

[USAF Ret]

I'd say shoot whatever you want. Either bullet with either charge will kill a deer.
That being said one group does not make a trend especially with only 3 shots.
I shoot 3 shot groups as a guide for a load but the do it again to validate - in effect shooting a 6 shot group.

I am headed back out to the range Thursday to shoot another group and do a little more testing. Also, to get the scope zeroed on the final load. But, I agree. A single three shot group does not fully tell the tale. But sometimes, it's what you have to go with.

 

[Hanshi]

I ALWAYS load for the best accuracy in my rifle and recommend the same to others. A bullet going 900 fps at 100 yards can completely penetrate a deer and probably the one standing behind it. And there is no such thing as "knockdown power" from a shoulder fired hunting rifle. A hit can stun and cause a deer to drop in its footy prints and I've done that many times over the decades. If a bullet knocks a deer down then (Newtons Law) it will also knock YOU down. Shoot two deer in a row and one might fall DRT but the next one may run for half a mile. Go for accuracy and hit right in the heart/lung area and your freezer is full.

 

[USAF Ret]

I ALWAYS load for the best accuracy in my rifle and recommend the same to others. A bullet going 900 fps at 100 yards can completely penetrate a deer and probably the one standing behind it. And there is no such thing as "knockdown power" from a shoulder fired hunting rifle. A hit can stun and cause a deer to drop in its footy prints and I've done that many times over the decades. If a bullet knocks a deer down then (Newtons Law) it will also knock YOU down. Shoot two deer in a row and one might fall DRT but the next one may run for half a mile. Go for accuracy and hit right in the heart/lung area and your freezer is full.

Thank you sir and I love your profile pic. Tom Selleck and Sam Elliot took over from the Duke and Clint.

 

[Ka'imiloa]

Very respectful but frank comments here, USAF Retired: I love your beautiful photos and group/ballistic analysis, and much appreciate your posting and thoughtful comments. Yet here we are at 25 comments on a thread, judging accuracy vs. velocity on the basis 3 shot groups. Even in today's world of far better bullets (some exceptions to that and in the ML world with its increased variables, there are more exceptions due to the rapidly expanding bullet marketplace). 3 shot groups may be acceptable for testing powders and approximate groups in the magazines, but are not statistically valid to the best of my modern knowledge. There is good statistical argument for seven shot groups, even ten to this day, to truly judge accuracy.

However, we have the distinct variable with ML shooting of powder fouling, plus much slower shooting than with cartridges, due to needed cleaning, light change, wind change and, often, distinct recoil to try to overcome mentally. All these affect the group you might get in shooting, say, seven shot groups. So many a cartridge and ML shooter fall back on the "compromise" 5-shot group. And now the high cost of powder and bullets, plus low availability, makes 3-shot groups an inviting prospect, yet not a very good test to hang an accuracy judgement on.

Another issue in this thread is downrange energy. Kinetic energy is just a number and bullet performance can vary greatly depending on what was hit, range, powder charge and bullet weight and of course velocity. However, State laws have to be based on something in the realm of hunting, and in the realm of deer hunting, the "gold standard" for adequate kinetic energy from a firearm is 800 ft. lbs. at whatever range. The .357 Magnum revolver could achieve that. How do I know? About 28 years ago I did research of all the States' handgun hunting laws for Hawaii's Fish and Game Dept. because anti-gun Hawaii was the last State in the Union to allow pistol hunting, and the Legislature (!) made the hunting laws rather than the Dept. So I used that nationally accepted 800 ft. lbs as the means to establish acceptable hunting handgun calibers and loads, and even some ML pistol loads. Of course BP revolvers were out, and some other ML handguns (that was for a fight on another day, just as it was it took me 3 or 4 years to get handgun hunting passed in Hawaii).

So I think 800 ft. lbs. ME at a given range is reasonable for whitetail deer-sized game, and with today's (mostly) improved bullets 700 ft. lbs might seem reasonable with a proven bullet. But please keep in mind there is a great deal of potential difference between the penetration and killing performance of a hardcast, flat-fronted bullet like a Harvester, and some of today's soft-lead, thinly "jacketed" ML bullets. Many a shot opportunity is by no means ideal and may mean shooting through paunch or bone to get to the heart/lung area. Now move up to big Mule Deer and especially elk and all this becomes more and more important as range increases and shots are seldom those nice, clear broadside shots at 50-100 yds. Yes, a great many bullets may punch a hole thru a deer to the far-side hide, or clear on thru, but what actually happens internally with both penetration and hydrolic shock from bullet performance is the name of the game for recovered game. Happily, ML hunting bullets often have the advantage of being at least .45 diameter just to start with.

Aloha, Ka'imiloa

 

[ElDiablo]

3 shot groups may be acceptable for testing powders and approximate groups in the magazines, but are not statistically valid to the best of my modern knowledge. There is good statistical argument for seven shot groups, even ten to this day, to truly judge accuracy.

Absolutely! I’ve written this many times before - three shot groups are not statistically valid for predicting dispersion (group sizes) in the real world.

According to the Hornady ballisticians, a three shot group will vary up to 60 to 70% from the average of a (statistically valid) 20-30 shot group. So a 1” three shot group may turn into a 1.7” group if you actually shot a statistically valid number of shots.

Personally, I use three shot groups to rule out a load but never to predict how well a load is likely to shoot.

 

[Mnt monkey]

As the shooter who approaches muzzleloading with a benchrest and a long distance influence I do shoot a lot of five shot groups and sometimes 7 to 10 shot groups and I agree that does establish an accurate load, but I have evolved a little bit for this reason muzzleloaders are primarily hunting weapons to me, even though I shoot them like bench rest guns, what I mean I guess is in a hunting presentation the only accuracy I'm concerned about primarily or those first two shots and if I'm lucky enough and ever needed a third shot possibly that third shot that has influenced my group shooting a lot I mean let's face it if we're going to shoot five to 10 shot groups we really have to let that muzzle loading rifle set and cool off I guess if we're shooting bullet to bore smokeless or something like that it's not necessarily needed you can just load shoot load and shoot again I'm never going to apply that in the field hunting even though I do that in practice because I'm a Target shooter I know that the reality is in the field my main concern is going to be those first two shots for me especially if I'm shooting a plastic load what I have started to do the last year or two is shooting multiple two shot groups or three shot groups , I will shoot them back to back in the same shooting session without cleaning the rifle if I'm shooting Blackhorn or if I'm shooting smokeless I make sure and let the gun cool completely as if I'm hunting I really feel like four or five two shot groups with my plastic load and bullet that are all shooting a consistent pattern preferably at least touching each other at 100 yards maybe slightly off a quarter inch I sometimes will tolerate I look for two bullets touching and I look for a load that'll do that four or five times four or five times shooting two shots each of those times. In a shooting session if I have four or five two shot groups all printing on the same place on the target in a sense it is a 10 shot group just not all shot at the same moment. I don't have a single rifle out of the group that I can just shoot 5 to 10 shot plastic groups back to back of course I would have to let that Barrel cool off if I have to let it cool off completely to cool touch to fire the next round I don't know to me might as well start another group however I can shoot two and sometimes three shots without the barrel heat affecting the plastic I guess because of that issue right there I have become a supporter of the two shot three shot group in a practical sense it is the field accuracy for me in a hunting situation I'm more concerned about I find that an easier path with multiple two-shot groups but of course during the off season I'm shooting 5 to 10 shots on a regular basis because I have the time to set and let the barrel cool,,, very much appreciate other perspectives!!

 

[Mnt monkey]

I use my chronograph about every other year,, and usually because I've just been asked questions about the velocity of my loads I keep those numbers in my memory I'll break out the chronograph to kind of refresh my memory a little bit,, I am absolutely in the accuracy camp ,,I learn the trajectory of my bullets from shooting them not from knowing the velocities and applying those velocities to a formula for doping my scope, for you analytical technical shooters I would probably drive you nuts,, even though I love to shoot bench rest and target ,in my own personal shooting style I want to almost be like some of those guys that just pick up a longbow and hit a aspirin in the air I don't know how to explain it but I want to be a natural shooter rather than a technical one but that's just my personality in my mind I know we're all built different,,, one thing I absolutely believe in find the most accurate load your rifle can shoot ,,don't settle for minute of deer. Another thing I believe is people who can't hit their target tend to always be looking for a better performing bullet not necessarily and more accurate one

 

[USAF Ret]

I have several packs of the bullet I have chosen coming in. There will be additional load and group testing this weekend. I appreciate all inputs.

 

[rangerod]

Certainly a three shot group(s) can give an idea of a loads potential. Usually I do load development in colder weather so I don't have the added issue of a hot barrel. Once I have the three shot group pretty well zeroed in I'll add more bullets to the group. Over the course of a number of weeks I'll shoot the larger groups maybe twice weekly (weather dependent). This can be a big confidence booster when you know you got it right. The only downside is it can be rather costly. I'll gladly trade the cost for the confidence factor.

 

[ENCORE50A]

............................... I've always felt confidence level is a really big factor.

THAT says it best when it comes to accuracy.

Accuracy can also depend on what type of day the shooter may be having.
You can have a rifle that will put 10 rounds into a single hole, yet it only happens on the shooters "good days".
Accuracy and shot placement are #1 when hunting. It comes from confidence..........

 

[Mnt monkey]

Encore could not agree more I'm sure looking for that screamer group but it's the repeatability the next day and a week after that confidence is everything

 

[brad502a]

Just my two cents worth, but I have had the best accuracy around 110grV with BH209 and Barnes bullets. 20 grains is a big jump when doing load development. I would have done 80,90,100,110 grV, but that is me, you do you. After narrowing it down, I would go up and down 5 grV to see if that tightened anything up, and then threw about 5 charges and weighed them to come up with an average. That average on the scale would be MY load.

 

[Decay]

Every shooter, no matter what type of rifle they shoot, should read, understand and believe what these fine men have just written.

 

[Ka'imiloa]

I think it comes down to you. Do you feel comfortable taking a 200yrd shot without a bench rest? Are even going to have an opportunity of a 200yrd shot? If either of those are a yes I'd go with the heavier charge. Otherwise I'd keep it light.

I know you had talked about your shoulders. How was the recoil after the day of shooting on the shoulders.

Agree. It's interesting to note that, reportedly, the Mountain Men using the .54 or .58 cal. Hawken rifles would use 110 gr. vol. of BP for ordinary shooting, but when the range was long or animal quite big, they would double their charge (220 gr.). Even in a heavy Hawken rifle, with no recoil pad and especially with a curved buttplate, that would wake you right up at discharge! The recoil mitigating factor was that they were shooting RBs, and a .535 RB weighs only 218 gr. as I recall. But weight of powder charge goes into the recoil calculation too, and they were doubling that.
Aloha, Ka'imiloa

 

[Hanshi]

The only long gun I commonly shoot that tells me what I need to know with only 3 shots is my smoothbore with round ball. Once a shot is fired it is very difficult to have a situation where one can rustle and move around reloading an STILL get a second shot at a deer. Been there, done that quite a few times. My first shot nearly always hits correctly so I don't worry about a second one. I reload after the successful shot looking for another deer to show up. By sitting for an hour after the shot I've, on many occasions, got a second and often a third deer during that extra hour of remaining on stand. Still, the only thing I absolutely count on is that first shot. I'm sure it may have happened with me at some point in time; but trying to reload for a second shot at a deer has never been successful. One of the only times that I can recall was a perfect shot presented at a nice buck. As usual I was using my flintlock but some where along my stll dark walk to the stand the prime somehow got lost from the pan not leaving enough to fire the rifle. First shot only rewarded me with a "clack". I desperately started priming while the buck stood still watching me. and just as I pulled the flint hammer back he just disappeared in a couple of jumps. That is exactly what usually happens with a foiled first shot.

 

[USAF Ret]

Was planning to head to the range today and test loading 90gr volume with the 5 bullets I have left. Midway updated the shipping and my bullets arrive later today. So, going to the range tomorrow instead to be able to test a little more. Group test and get a velocity on the 80 gr volume and do same with 90 grain. Set scope on load choice and although season opens Saturday, waiting to go next Wednesday on Ft Bragg (Ft Liberty for the woke). Just less traffic to deal with. I hate battling folks at midnight for sign ins. Hunting should de-stress me. I am still off for the next 2.5 weeks until my new job starts. So, going to try to at least get a doe processed and in the freezer.

I asked for wisdom and I was not disappointed. Thanks all.

 

[USAF Ret]

Well folks, I was 9 shots in. About to tell y'all I had chosen my load and I was on bull and ready to go. Then I shot number 10 and everything went squirrely and I have no idea why. I have attached a pic, but just to walk through and would appreciate feedback. Never had this issue with centerfire rifles.

Barnes T-EZ 290 grain
Test BH 209 80 & 90 VOLUME LOADS

Shots 1-3 - 90 grain volume
Shots 4-6 - 80 grain volume - chose this load
Shots 7-8 - Adjusted scope and shots were nearly touching and about 1/2 inch right and 1/2 inch low
Shot 9 - Adjusted scope again and in the bullseye

Here is where it goes nuts
Shot 10 - Just to double check zero - A little over 2 inches high and right.
Shot 11 - Nearly 3 inches high and an inch right.
Shot 12 - Stopped and cleaned barrel and replaced breech plug - Shot inch and a half right of center. I may have pulled it a little.

So, at this point I thought it was just a fouled barrel and maybe breech plug. Nope

Shot 13 - 2 inches high and half inch right
Shot 14 - 3 inches high and inch and a half right
Shot 15 - Cleaned barrel again - 2 inches right and 3 inches high
Shot 16 - 2 inches high and 2 1/2 inches right.

So, basically after great shots and walking it into bull, most every shot after that was high and right by 2-3 inches. I checked the scope at the range. Nothing loose. Came back to house, removed scope and checked both the ring and mounting screws. All were torqued to spec. Now doing a thorough cleaning. I am running low on bullets and powder. I might be able to do one more session of about 8-10 shots. I do have other bullets and pellets, but that is testing all over again and with the range days, I will lose a week of season and the season is only 2 weeks.

Wise people speak!