Accurate Molds #50-415l 1st Test, 5 Shot Group

[LR_Smoker]

That is correct, I have molds made .002-.003 over what i KNOW i need, it is easy to Size a Bullet per Bore, but nearly impossible to make them Bigger, if the Bullet Drops to Small you are in trouble, you can Knurl, ad a little Teflon tape Etc in a Pinch, But that is NOT ideal. You also don’t want to order To big, There is no reason to Size more than .003-.004,

This is the Problem with .45 Cal Lyman Molds, They are intended for Cartridge Guns shooting Groove Diameter which is typically .458 (Hence the .450/.458 Barrel Specs) Where us Muzzleloader Guys shoot “Bore“ Diameter Bullets. With typical .45 Cal Bore Diameters being .450 to .452, Now take Lyman .45 Cal Bullets that Drop at .458-.460, They MUST be Sized all the way down to .451-.452, That is a LOT to Size, YES it can work, and has MANY MANY Times, with MANY Different Lyman 45 Cal Bullets, But it is FAR FAR From ideal. When sizing these Lyman .458-460 Bullets, I do it in 2 Steps. .454 First, then down to .451-.452

Lets go with a Bore Diameter of .451, For Hunting We need a Finished Bullet diameter of .452, maybe even .453 To “Hold the Bore” Good n Snug, Depends on your Bore of course. Pushing a Soft lead bullet that is .001-.002 over our .451 Bore Diameter is EASY to do.

Why did you go with two large grease grooves rather than three or even four ? My understanding with large grease grooves is the tendency for the excess lube to stick in the grooves and throw the bullet out of balance such as the extreme case you experienced with the Thompson bullet. I would presume that there’s a reason for everything that you do even if it’s just an educated guess. Lee uses their micro band approach with their Lee Liquid Alox approach for unmentionables however muzzleloaders are a different animal with the associated fouling however there are numerous examples of varying numbers of grease grooves from different manufacturers. There must be a trade off somewhere.

 

[Idaholewis]

Why did you go with two large grease grooves rather than three or even four ? My understanding with large grease grooves is the tendency for the excess lube to stick in the grooves and throw the bullet out of balance such as the extreme case you experienced with the Thompson bullet. I would presume that there’s a reason for everything that you do even if it’s just an educated guess. Lee uses their micro band approach with their Lee Liquid Alox approach for unmentionables however muzzleloaders are a different animal with the associated fouling however there are numerous examples of varying numbers of grease grooves from different manufacturers. There must be a trade off somewhere.

You are right, i had a Reason for just 2 Lube Gooves Excess Lube in Grooves can be a BAD thing, Depending on the Lube? This is why you hear me speak of the importance of a “Soft Lube” The softer the Lube, the easier it is to “Shed away“ from the Bullet at the Muzzle upon exiting. You DEFINITELY want enough Lube, But excessive Lube sticking in the Grooves, Hitching a Ride to the Target can be Detrimental to Accuracy, I have seen it MANY MANY times. It doesn’t take as much Lube as one might think. And different lubes, Consistencies play a HUGE Role

Here is a Good Example, No matter what anyone say’s, Lee Shaver is one of the VERY BEST Shooters in the WORLD, He is a 2 Time WORLD Champion, and Set many other Records Etc. Since accuracy is my #1 Goal in this Stuff, i pay CLOSE attention to what Guy’s like Lee Shaver & Dave Gullo do, They don’t Win REPEATEDLY from Luck, They know exactly what they are Doing

This is a Lee Shaver Designed Long Range Muzzleloader Bullet, This Bullet is 1.486” long, That is a LOOOOOOONG Bullet, Now look at how many Grease Grooves it has YEP, a Whopping 3 Grease Grooves
https://www.buffaloarms.com/450-575-grain-lee-shaver-muzzle-loading-mould-jim450575

 

[Saxtonyoung]

Even if a bullet has several grooves you don't need to fill them all. Trial and error. Might be why Lee Shavers decided on three.

 

[Idaholewis]

Here is a GOOD Example

This is my 5 Shot Group Target that Started this thread, My new Bullet with 2 Measly Grease Grooves

After exiting my 28” inch Bore, And traveling 60 Yards to the Target, There is Stil Lube Note the 2 Red Arrows? That is Bullet Lube Speckled on the Target. So yea, 2 Lube Grooves is PLENTY with a Bullet that only measures .84 Long, in Fact it’s more Lube than needed obviously, But the 2 Grooves are necessary as there would be more Exposed lead than i would want If say i had went with 1 Groove.

 

[Idaholewis]

And lastly but not leastly If i had been using a Lube other My Own PROVEN Stuff (Which I’ve shared with all on here) My 5 Shot Group Target in this thread would VERY LIKELY NOT be what it is

Here is an AWESOME example of that. The ONLY thing Different here was the Bullet Lube. EVERYTHING else was identical, Believe me when i say that Bullet Lube can MAKE or BREAK accuracy, I have worked DILIGENTLY in this Stuff learning it. In short, i have made this Hobby my Life, I have lived and Breathed this Stuff for Several years now, Pretty much DAILY

Remember, These Targets I’m gonna show were Shot BACK TO BACK, Same Bullet, Cast in the Same session, Same Powder Charges, and Wads, The ONLY difference here was the Bullet Lube. This is 4 Shots with Lube “A” As you can see it wasn’t working well Now had i not “been here, Done that“ Before? I would have Given up on this Bullet Shooting in my Rifle, But i KNEW Better

And here is that EXACT SAME Bullet as above, Except Lubed with Lube “B” I have seen this several times over the last few years, this is probably the Best Example I’ve seen, The difference is usually not this WILD

 

[edmehlig]

Lew, you ought to package and sell that Lube! Who knows you may steal all the business away from SPG and Bullshop?? By the way, I just added that Stihl oil into my lube and have some bullets sitting in it now. I was hoping your bullets would have been here by now but the post office hasn't sent me any updates since the 20th. Now to get out and try my new 385gr bullet with your secret although not so secret now ingredient.

 

[LR_Smoker]

And lastly but not leastly If i had been using a Lube other My Own PROVEN Stuff (Which I’ve shared with all on here) My 5 Shot Group Target in this thread would VERY LIKELY NOT be what it is

Here is an AWESOME example of that. The ONLY thing Different here was the Bullet Lube. EVERYTHING else was identical, Believe me when i say that Bullet Lube can MAKE or BREAK accuracy, I have worked DILIGENTLY in this Stuff learning it. In short, i have made this Hobby my Life, I have lived and Breathed this Stuff for Several years now, Pretty much DAILY

Remember, These Targets I’m gonna show were Shot BACK TO BACK, Same Bullet, Cast in the Same session, Same Powder Charges, and Wads, The ONLY difference here was the Bullet Lube. This is 4 Shots with Lube “A” As you can see it wasn’t working well Now had i not “been here, Done that“ Before? I would have Given up on this Bullet Shooting in my Rifle, But i KNEW Better

And here is that EXACT SAME Bullet as above, Except Lubed with Lube “B” I have seen this several times over the last few years, this is probably the Best Example I’ve seen, The difference is usually not this WILD

At a snails pace I have been pulling together the components to have a go at actually casting, lubing and sizing bore rider bullets. I had dreamed of making my own mold however I decided to submit a design to Tom at Accurate Molds and see if he will cut it for me. Maybe the wrong decision however but I decided to go with a 50-488M with a number of tweaks to suit my crazy idea’s and bore size. Hopefully Tom will agree to cut it and sometime in January I will have it in my grubby paws. Thanks to all the individuals and particularly IdahoLewis for the comments and suggestions on the site.

 

[Idaholewis]

At a snails pace I have been pulling together the components to have a go at actually casting, lubing and sizing bore rider bullets. I had dreamed of making my own mold however I decided to submit a design to Tom at Accurate Molds and see if he will cut it for me. Maybe the wrong decision however but I decided to go with a 50-488M with a number of tweaks to suit my crazy idea’s and bore size. Hopefully Tom will agree to cut it and sometime in January I will have it in my grubby paws. Thanks to all the individuals and particularly IdahoLewis for the comments and suggestions on the site.

Is this for Muzzleloader, or Cartridge Gun?

For Muzzleloaders I don’t care for a Bore rider nose like #50-488, That is what i had changed about mine, I had the Bearing surface run up .1 forward of the front Lube groove

 

[LR_Smoker]

Is this for Muzzleloader, or Cartridge Gun?

For Muzzleloaders I don’t care for a Bore rider nose like #50-488, That is what i had changed about mine, I had the Bearing surface run up .1 forward of the front Lube groove

This is for a muzzleloader. If you look at 50-478P you will see my design. I have a narrow bearing surface just before the top lube band. The bearing surface ends up being very close to matching your 445 gr however this one has just slightly less lube capacity. Center of gravity is slightly further back and the theoretical stability factor is supposed to be slightly better also. Theory is theory and reality can be quite different. Believe me when I say that I am in uncharted water here and there is a possibility that the design may flop however I’m going to give it a try anyways. I will be trying to replicate as many of your processes as possible as I go through the learning curve and see where it leads me. Thanks for your input.

 

[Idaholewis]

Here are a Few examples of what I’m talking about

#50-488M is a Tapered design in the Catalog which is something else i DON’T like in my Muzzleloaders and had Changed. I prefer the entire Bearing surface of the Bullet to be the Same, I size my bullets to fit each Bore, therefore there is NO REASON for the Bullet to have any taper (Like a TC Maxi Ball) I had my #50-488 Bullet Re-desiged to run the Bearing surface up on the Start of the Nose, just forward of the Top Grease Groove, And i went .503 for the ENTIRE Bearing surface

Here is #50-488M (A Tapered Design) Note the .5 at the Start of the Nose? Making it a “Bore Rider” Nose. The front band (just under the nose) is .504, There is just no reason for Such a thing in a Muzzleloader. A Cartridge gun YES.

These are my Designs, NO TAPER, And Note the Red Arrow, Pointing at the TOP of the Bearing surface, Look at the Diameter numbers to the Right, They are ALL the Same from the Bottom Base Band, to TOP of the Bearing Surface

 

[LR_Smoker]

Here are a Few examples of what I’m talking about

#50-488M is a Tapered design in the Catalog which is something else i DON’T like in my Muzzleloaders and had Changed. I prefer the entire Bearing surface of the Bullet to be the Same, I size my bullets to fit each Bore, therefore there is NO REASON for the Bullet to have any taper (Like a TC Maxi Ball) I had my #50-488 Bullet Re-desiged to run the Bearing surface up on the Start of the Nose, just forward of the Top Grease Groove, And i went .503 for the ENTIRE Bearing surface

Here is #50-488M (A Tapered Design) Note the .5 at the Start of the Nose? Making it a “Bore Rider” Nose. The front band (just under the nose) is .504, There is just no reason for Such a thing in a Muzzleloader. A Cartridge gun YES.

These are my Designs, NO TAPER, And Note the Red Arrow, Pointing at the TOP of the Bearing surface, Look at the Diameter numbers to the Right, They are ALL the Same from the Bottom Base Band, to TOP of the Bearing Surface

Did you manage to have a look at 50-478P ? I do think that it is fairly close to what you have found to work best.

 

[Idaholewis]

Your New Bullet looks GREAT, You did the same as mine above Your Diameter is larger at .506, If you used Accurates PLUS Tolerance, and you follow my Casting Tips, Be aware that it will likely Drop from the Mold at .508, If you have a Large .504 White Type Bore that is Good But for Typical .501 Bores, That is EXCESSIVE Sizing, and gets HARD on the Bullet.

 

[LR_Smoker]

Your New Bullet looks GREAT, You did the same as mine above Your Diameter is larger at .506, If you used Accurates PLUS Tolerance, and you follow my Casting Tips, Be aware that it will likely Drop from the Mold at .508, If you have a Large .504 White Type Bore that is Good But for Typical .501 Bores, That is EXCESSIVE Sizing, and gets HARD on the Bullet.

Here are a Few examples of what I’m talking about

#50-488M is a Tapered design in the Catalog which is something else i DON’T like in my Muzzleloaders and had Changed. I prefer the entire Bearing surface of the Bullet to be the Same, I size my bullets to fit each Bore, therefore there is NO REASON for the Bullet to have any taper (Like a TC Maxi Ball) I had my #50-488 Bullet Re-desiged to run the Bearing surface up on the Start of the Nose, just forward of the Top Grease Groove, And i went .503 for the ENTIRE Bearing surface

Here is #50-488M (A Tapered Design) Note the .5 at the Start of the Nose? Making it a “Bore Rider” Nose. The front band (just under the nose) is .504, There is just no reason for Such a thing in a Muzzleloader. A Cartridge gun YES.

These are my Designs, NO TAPER, And Note the Red Arrow, Pointing at the TOP of the Bearing surface, Look at the Diameter numbers to the Right, They are ALL the Same from the Bottom Base Band, to TOP of the Bearing Surface

[/QUOTE
The bore size is actually .503 so I figure that for hunting purposes I will want .002 to .003 oversized to keep it tight on the powder using soft lead and if I want to paper punch I can size down a couple of thousands until I get the fit I want. I’m confident ( sorta kinda .... ) that it will at least rattle down the barrel and hopefully hit the target , maybe even group good.

 

[LR_Smoker]

Your New Bullet looks GREAT, You did the same as mine above Your Diameter is larger at .506, If you used Accurates PLUS Tolerance, and you follow my Casting Tips, Be aware that it will likely Drop from the Mold at .508, If you have a Large .504 White Type Bore that is Good But for Typical .501 Bores, That is EXCESSIVE Sizing, and gets HARD on the Bullet.

Don’t know what I did wrong with the last post however....
The bore size is .503 and I figure that I need .002 or .003 interference fit to stay tight on the powder for hunting purposes. If I want to paper punch I can always size down a couple of thousands to make it easy to load. I also feel that for experimental purposes I could machine back the nose to make a bigger meplat or drill for a hollow point. Basically that’s why I stayed material safe so that I can remove rather than try adding.

 

[Idaholewis]

The things to remember when ordering a Mold from Accurate

When you use his PLUS Tolerance that means you will FOR SURE get the Number you ask, in your Case that is .506, With Accurates .002 Tolerance Window you could end up at .508, If you follow my casting tips, And Cast like i do, you WILL end up at .508

I don’t like to Size a Bullet anymore than i have to, So lets say i have a Bore Diameter of .501, I will order a .502 with Accurate Molds PLUS Tolerance, Casting like i do, i will end up at .504

 

[LR_Smoker]

The things to remember when ordering a Mold from Accurate

When you use his PLUS Tolerance that means you will FOR SURE get the Number you ask, in your Case that is .506, With Accurates .002 Tolerance Window you could end up at .508, If you follow my casting tips, And Cast like i do, you WILL end up at .508

I don’t like to Size a Bullet anymore than i have to, So lets say i have a Bore Diameter of .501, I will order a .502 with Accurate Molds PLUS Tolerance, Casting like i do, i will end up at .504

I’m assuming that you get the high end of the tolerance because you are running hot. I was expecting that it would drop with .506 if everything was perfect however if it was cut a bit on the slightly larger size I could still use it by sizing them down. I just have to be sure that the bullet stays tight on the powder. I guess I could still ask him to cut +/- .001 instead of +.002 / -0. The other thing that I uncertain of is being able to reach your level of proficiency in casting lead Bullets. You are really good at that and I’m nowhere near your level of competence.

 

[Idaholewis]

Another thing to keep in mind, When sizing more than .004 you Should do it in 2 Steps. Use LOTS of Lube on the Bullet, and even Pre-Lube the Sizer Die

Best example i have is my .458-459 Lyman Molds, I have a BUNCH of these that i Shoot in my Muzzleloaders, I size them down as far as .449 to “Land/Bore Ride” in my 1-20 Twist Rice. Trying to Size .458-.459 down that Far in 1 Sweep is TO MUCH, I ruin Bullet Bases, i get Finning, Etc. In Short, it’s TOUGH on the Bullet. The least you have to Size, The better off you are When i size My Lyman .458-.459s, Down to shoot in my .450-.451 .45 Cal Muzzleloader Bores, I send them through my .454 First, Then .451-.452 Etc.

 

[LR_Smoker]

Another thing to keep in mind, When sizing more than .004 you Should do it in 2 Steps. Use LOTS of Lube on the Bullet, and even Pre-Lube the Sizer Die

Best example i have is my .458-459 Lyman Molds, I have a BUNCH of these that i Shoot in my Muzzleloaders, I size them down as far as .449 to “Land/Bore Ride” in my 1-20 Twist Rice. Trying to Size .458-.459 down that Far in 1 Sweep is TO MUCH, I ruin Bullet Bases, i get Finning, Etc. In Short, it’s TOUGH on the Bullet. The least you have to Size, The better off you are When i size My Lyman .458-.459s, Down to shoot in my .450-.451 .45 Cal Muzzleloader Bores, I send them through my .454 First, Then .451-.452 Etc.

So if I want a snug fit in the barrel to ensure that the bullet won’t move for a NORMAL hunting situation ( not dropping the gun muzzle first on the ground) what sort of interference fit do yo recommend ?

 

[Idaholewis]

I’m assuming that you get the high end of the tolerance because you are running hot. I was expecting that it would drop with .506 if everything was perfect however if it was cut a bit on the slightly larger size I could still use it by sizing them down. I just have to be sure that the bullet stays tight on the powder. I guess I could still ask him to cut +/- .001 instead of +.002 / -0. The other thing that I uncertain of is being able to reach your level of proficiency in casting lead Bullets. You are really good at that and I’m nowhere near your level of competence.

Correct, i cast HOT, I get OPTIMUM Fillout that way. This is why i get larger Bullets than many.

A good example is Forum member Edmehlig, He bought a new Iron Mold from Accurate not long ago, and was FRUSTRATED that it was Not Dropping Large enough, He Contacted Accurate and was Close to Sending the Mold Back, I KNEW EXACTLY What was Wrong 2,513.7 miles away He was NOT getting the Mold Hot Enough, I walked him through it, Lo n Behold his mold Started Dropping What he Ordered

If you follow my Casting Tips, You will be Cranking out Perfect Bullets. If you have ANY questions just ask me, I’ll walk you through the Process, I have helped a BUNCH of people Cast the Same Quality of Bullets that i do

 

[Idaholewis]

If you don’t already have a LEAD Thermometer, Its IMPORTANT that you get one. Otherwise it’s a Guessing Game EVERYTIME you Cast. Believe me, The LEAD Thermometer is worth it’s Weight in Gold. Since i use Bottom Pour Pots with Dial thermostats, I don’t have to use my Thermometer often, But it’s a VITAL Part of my Casting equipment When adjusting Temp.

Temperature of The LEAD or ALLOY is one of the MOST important parts of Casting. There are “Sweet Spots” per LEAD/ALLOY that you need to Find in order to Get OPTIMUM Fillout. Mold Temp is VERY important as well, But that’s easy to get & Maintain