Blast From The Past, What Will 2016 Bring?

[4gun-drill]

I am new to the muzzleloader community. But, I have been in the archery business for about 20 yrs. I have seen companies come and go, struggle for many years with bad design and poor customer service.
It seems to me that Knight is having some pains to keep up with demand and they are berated by the same customers that hail them as the best. In this day and age where everything is "Now" it is tough to please everyone.

As for CVA. They are filling a very important niche for the muzzleloader game. Very nice quality (not top of the line custom built) muzzleloaders.
Not the best but will do the job and get more people into the game. I recently bought one as a way to find out if I want to peruse it any further. I looked at reviews and a lot of guns before I decided on the Optima v2 northwest edition.
I have bows in my shop that range in price from $200-$999 and then there are customs that will go into the $1500 range. I will tell you that the 3-400 $ bows are my bread and butter. When the economy buyer wants to step up they come back to buy the $500 -$900 bows after they fall in love with it.
We shouldn't bash the companies that bring the new people to the sport.
Educate them!
People need to know the limitations of particular products.

Good Shocks And Four Wheel Drive

Couldn't agree more!

 

[WTM45]

A website like this one... (Awesome and informative I must say!) is gonna be comprised mostly of higher experienced shooters and "loonies" who can be pretty analytical and critical of individual muzzleloaders and their manufacture/service. I am happy I don't see too much of the "fanboy" commentary or "brand bashing" here, mostly just good simple feedback on what works and what does not. Of course, folks have their preferences and bad experiences do get more of the spotlight than good ones by far. No exception here.

Sharing useful knowledge means relating hands on experience, both good and bad. Seems the internet is where lots of folks love to push a story or agenda, whether true or not, most often it is second hand or even farther from their own hands on experience. Thankfully there is not an unbearable amount of that happening here, and it is why I really enjoy this website. I hope 2016 continues with the same!

 

[ohiostate]

I think they got two employees right now. guess that why nobody answer the phone... they need to do better than that... worm

 

[Underclocked]

Busta isn't being a "fan boy". He's being a realist - and he is right.

 

[Smyrnagc]

Busta isn't being a "fan boy". He's being a realist - and he is right.

...and he has years of day-to-day experience in this business to draw from.

 

[Grouse]

No doubt it seems Knight has some quality control problems. As far as T/C, the Triumph is a great break open ML. I've always had no issues with customer service either. CVA leads the industry in cheap muzzloaders. After owning a Accura and an Apex, they are cheap compared to the rest. Bergara barrels are accurate but weak. They just can't handle the pressures like Green Mountain and other manufactures can. Though there are some good designs, quality and craftsman ship is bottom of the barrel.

Do you know anyone who had a CVA barrel blow up?

I actually was in the hospital at the same time when a guy got hurt from one. This was along time ago and there should be a thread about it someplace. He was very lucky I remember that much. How or why it happened I never asked. I'm sure something stupid!!

 

[Grouse]

I am new to the muzzleloader community. But, I have been in the archery business for about 20 yrs. I have seen companies come and go, struggle for many years with bad design and poor customer service.
It seems to me that Knight is having some pains to keep up with demand and they are berated by the same customers that hail them as the best. In this day and age where everything is "Now" it is tough to please everyone.

As for CVA. They are filling a very important niche for the muzzleloader game. Very nice quality (not top of the line custom built) muzzleloaders.
Not the best but will do the job and get more people into the game. I recently bought one as a way to find out if I want to peruse it any further. I looked at reviews and a lot of guns before I decided on the Optima v2 northwest edition.
I have bows in my shop that range in price from $200-$999 and then there are customs that will go into the $1500 range. I will tell you that the 3-400 $ bows are my bread and butter. When the economy buyer wants to step up they come back to buy the $500 -$900 bows after they fall in love with it.
We shouldn't bash the companies that bring the new people to the sport.
Educate them!
People need to know the limitations of particular products.

Good Shocks And Four Wheel Drive

Your absolutely correct!! People are going to buy the cheapest they can. Then you have a very small percentage of people that wanna buy quality. That's why CVA will continue to lead the industry in sales. I just hope Knight and T/C don't try to keep up with that and buy cheap parts. The owner at Knight Rifles told me he had no desire to compete with CVA. We all know how things change, I just hope that doesn't.

I remember years ago Western Powders and CVA wanted Lehigh to make there breech plugs. I talked Dave out of it. Just didn't want to see him involved in there guns. You talk to anyone who works on plugs and they will ALL tell you the CVA plugs are weak in comparison. But in hind site, If he could of made all the parts that would of been good. When he gets caught up, im going to talk to him about modifying a CVA Accura. But to many bullets to make now.

This CVA stuff is really old news and it's hunting season now. If you like them, keep the powder charges at 110grns by volume and less. And don't exceed a 300grn bullet. And don't shoot sabot less in them either. Your sabot is a safety valve in any ML in my opinion.

 

[ram2]

You talk to anyone who works on plugs and they will ALL tell you the CVA plugs are weak in comparison. But in hind site, If he could of made all the parts that would of been good. When he gets caught up, im going to talk to him about modifying a CVA Accura. But to many bullets to make now.

This CVA stuff is really old news and it's hunting season now. If you like them, keep the powder charges at 110grns by volume and less. And don't exceed a 300grn bullet. And don't shoot sabot less in them either. Your sabot is a safety valve in any ML in my opinion.

Can you provide us with your detailed metallurgical engineering analysis of CVA breech plugs?

CVAs love Powerbelts, and those are sabotless.

 

[Grouse]

You talk to anyone who works on plugs and they will ALL tell you the CVA plugs are weak in comparison. But in hind site, If he could of made all the parts that would of been good. When he gets caught up, im going to talk to him about modifying a CVA Accura. But to many bullets to make now.

This CVA stuff is really old news and it's hunting season now. If you like them, keep the powder charges at 110grns by volume and less. And don't exceed a 300grn bullet. And don't shoot sabot less in them either. Your sabot is a safety valve in any ML in my opinion.

Can you provide us with your detailed metallurgical engineering analysis of CVA breech plugs?

CVAs love Powerbelts, and those are sabotless.

Ronlaughlin and Sabotloader on this board have drilled many plugs out and could explain to you the difference between the three manufactures breech plugs. Or you could just do what I did and drill one out for yourself.

PowerBelts are not sabot less bullets. :nono: In the case of double loading Or double the charge the skirt will blow and gas can and will leak around the powerbelt bullet. Sabot less bullets or conicals have no skirt or sabot to keep that from happening.

 

[52Bore]

2016 muzzleloader wishes:
1) Savage: get back into the muzzleloader business. Give us a black powder only model 10 if you don't want the liability. Lots of the smokeless guys would just buy for the actions and we'd all benefit from a rifle with a good fit and finish.
2) Cooper: get some prostaff and compete in NMLRA competition. It's suspicious to see Bridges as your front man and hear about what a great "hunting" rifle you make with little to no talk about how accurate it is (or isn't)
3) Smith & Wesson: poop or get off the pot with Thompson Center. It's widely assumed you bought the company for a hand full of its patents. That's fine, it's just business, but if you're going to run it into the ground please take what you came for and sell what's left to someone who will run with it.
4) Knight: Concentrate on quality control and customer service. A rebuilding of the old companies dealer network would probably also help, especially since marketing seems to be a weak area.

I like your comments, can I add:
5) MML facts- ask people to refrain from generalizations and post facts. Don't post: 'it shoots great' to me a 1 - 3 shot ragged hole at 100yds is great - to someone else it might be 2". I find it's easy to post photos of facts (I can now do it myself and not have teenage assistance), that might be why I enjoyed Ronlaughlin's actual bullet testing so much.
6) MML Identity -have this site have an section on everyone's identity, just like this tread started someone question someone's loyalty. I don't like to read when someone starts on someone else and the back and forth that goes on. I understand where someone voices their opinion and that's OK. But for this site it might be good to have a bio for each 'poster' or at least the moderators. Since searching info about the Savage blowup near me - I noticed a lot to the same guys on here were on many other sites. Many times posting the same stuff on multiple sites. Seems to me if someone is/has received benefits from a manufacture of rifles, bullet, sabots or powder, etc. - their view would be skewed toward that product. I like to read and learn what people are doing and only hope that we all are directing them honestly.

I would hope we are like minded and we all wish only the best for ML. But, when there is a serious problem, accident, etc. regardless of the circumstances - it's a black eye for the ML industry.
Like I've seen before, one's thoughts on posting are not as they would speak, so no offense to anyone as maybe I'm wrong with my communication - it will not be the first/last time. But that's some of my 2016 wishes..

 

[gonehuntin]

nice article busta , is nice to see all of you ole friends from dwb's still postin, with all the new regulations coming out every day , probably has these manufactures scared, I wish everybody the best for 2016

 

[Grouse]

Talk about a fanboy!

This is becoming more and more with lots of people. I've seen like complete tunnel vision with people being stuck on a certain manufacture. Last year I shot game with three different ML companies, and three different bullet companies. I hope I keep it that way. This year I need to ad T/C to the list of harvesting game.

 

[52Bore]

After reading my own post, I'd have to add to #6 as there are a lot of knowledgeable post out there. If we know who was connected to a manufacturer, supplier others would be less inclined to dispute.

 

[FredB]

Yes, definitely a Northwest version Cooper ml! And a different, less expensive action would be fine. A bolt-action ml always just looked wrong to me anyway. Ultra-light? No thank you. Lobbing +/-400 grains of lead, I really don't want less than a 7 lbs rifle. I really just want an Idaho-legal ml that handles well, and I can use to take big game out to 200 yds. And the premium price is ok, if the performance justifies it. (Not just looks. It's a given that Coopers are sexy.)

 

[rwbaker]

Nice job busta .

 

[long shot]

uke:

You talk to anyone who works on plugs and they will ALL tell you the CVA plugs are weak in comparison. But in hind site, If he could of made all the parts that would of been good. When he gets caught up, im going to talk to him about modifying a CVA Accura. But to many bullets to make now.

This CVA stuff is really old news and it's hunting season now. If you like them, keep the powder charges at 110grns by volume and less. And don't exceed a 300grn bullet. And don't shoot sabot less in them either. Your sabot is a safety valve in any ML in my opinion.

Can you provide us with your detailed metallurgical engineering analysis of CVA breech plugs?

CVAs love Powerbelts, and those are sabotless.

Ronlaughlin and Sabotloader on this board have drilled many plugs out and could explain to you the difference between the three manufactures breech plugs. Or you could just do what I did and drill one out for yourself.

PowerBelts are not sabot less bullets. :nono: In the case of double loading Or double the charge the skirt will blow and gas can and will leak around the powerbelt bullet. Sabot less bullets or conicals have no skirt or sabot to keep that from happening.

sabots are saftey valves is bs, if that were true savages wouldn't blow

 

[Grouse]

fivebull,

Your obviously new in Muzzleloading so I will try and explain this to you. You take a 300grn saboted bullet in a savage and accidently double load it. Set two bullets on top of each other. Theres a very good chance when ignited the sabots will blow and the gas/pressures will leak around the bullets and keep the barrel from bulging or blowing for example. You take that same savage and load it with a sabotless bullet, and load on top of it another sabotless bullet. Which means a bore size bullet. When the gun goes off theres no place for the extra gas and pressures from being double loaded to go. That's usually how ML'S bulge and also some explode.

Don't believe everything you hear about Savages blowing up either. I don't doubt a couple have, but well youll figure that out down the road as well.

 

[long shot]

:

fivebull,

Your obviously new in Muzzleloading so I will try and explain this to you. You take a 300grn saboted bullet in a savage and accidently double load it. Set two bullets on top of each other. Theres a very good chance when ignited the sabots will blow and the gas/pressures will leak around the bullets and keep the barrel from bulging or blowing for example. You take that same savage and load it with a sabotless bullet, and load on top of it another sabotless bullet. Which means a bore size bullet. When the gun goes off theres no place for the extra gas and pressures from being double loaded to go. That's usually how ML'S bulge and also some explode.

Don't believe everything you hear about Savages blowing up either. I don't doubt a couple have, but well youll figure that out down the road as well.

Still BS and you know it . Now you are saying double load 2 bullets. This I agree, but sabot is not safety valve an you should not be saying this on sight with new people. I'm far from being new at Muzzle loading

 

[Grouse]

:

fivebull,

Your obviously new in Muzzleloading so I will try and explain this to you. You take a 300grn saboted bullet in a savage and accidently double load it. Set two bullets on top of each other. Theres a very good chance when ignited the sabots will blow and the gas/pressures will leak around the bullets and keep the barrel from bulging or blowing for example. You take that same savage and load it with a sabotless bullet, and load on top of it another sabotless bullet. Which means a bore size bullet. When the gun goes off theres no place for the extra gas and pressures from being double loaded to go. That's usually how ML'S bulge and also some explode.

Don't believe everything you hear about Savages blowing up either. I don't doubt a couple have, but well youll figure that out down the road as well.

Still BS and you know it . Now you are saying double load 2 bullets. This I agree, but sabot is not safety valve an you should not be saying this on sight with new people. I'm far from being new at Muzzle loading

Sabots are a safety valve compared to a guy shooting sabot less. Just plain facts!!

 

[Busta]

:

fivebull,

Your obviously new in Muzzleloading so I will try and explain this to you. You take a 300grn saboted bullet in a savage and accidently double load it. Set two bullets on top of each other. Theres a very good chance when ignited the sabots will blow and the gas/pressures will leak around the bullets and keep the barrel from bulging or blowing for example. You take that same savage and load it with a sabotless bullet, and load on top of it another sabotless bullet. Which means a bore size bullet. When the gun goes off theres no place for the extra gas and pressures from being double loaded to go. That's usually how ML'S bulge and also some explode.

Don't believe everything you hear about Savages blowing up either. I don't doubt a couple have, but well youll figure that out down the road as well.

Still BS and you know it . Now you are saying double load 2 bullets. This I agree, but sabot is not safety valve an you should not be saying this on sight with new people. I'm far from being new at Muzzle loading

You got that right. For someone that started muzzleloading the same time as Wakemsn in 2002, you'd think they would actually know what they are talking about by now? The other day he was trying to tell someone that the plastic skirt on a FULL BORE PowerBelt was a "safety valve" for that bullet as well.

It's just too bad that some here don't know that some don't know any better. A "gas check" and a "safety valve" are not synonymous.

At least he's backpedaling a bit since he has realized he has no idea what he is talking about.

It takes all kinds to fill a freeway!

Just hope nobody gets hurt thinking that his information is valid.