Breech plug question for Idaholewis

[Matthew323]

In another thread you mentioned the scarcity of 1" breechplugs for barrels destined for Thompson/Center Renegades.

When you were talking to Jason at Rice Barrels, did you get a sense of what they are going to charge for one of their CNC percussion 1" T/C breechplugs?

When I e-mailed him several weeks ago as to the possibility of a 21" long × 1" octagon × .40 caliber fast twist barrel for a Renegade Scout Rifle (what I REALLY want!!) he e-mailed me back that he had stopped making fast twist barrels due to the demands on his time that the round ball barrels were making.

If I could buy a 1" Breech plug, then I could get Howard Kelley at Webertown Rifle Works to make the .40 caliber, 1-16" twist barrel. He makes all of Doc White's fast twist barrels that he doesn't already have stashed away.

Thanks,
Bruce

 

[Idaholewis]

In another thread you mentioned the scarcity of 1" breechplugs for barrels destined for Thompson/Center Renegades.

When you were talking to Jason at Rice Barrels, did you get a sense of what they are going to charge for one of their CNC percussion 1" T/C breechplugs?

When I e-mailed him several weeks ago as to the possibility of a 21" long × 1" octagon × .40 caliber fast twist barrel for a Renegade Scout Rifle (what I REALLY want!!) he e-mailed me back that he had stopped making fast twist barrels due to the demands on his time that the round ball barrels were making.

If I could buy a 1" Breech plug, then I could get Howard Kelley at Webertown Rifle Works to make the .40 caliber, 1-16" twist barrel. He makes all of Doc White's fast twist barrels that he doesn't already have stashed away.

Thanks,
Bruce

75 bucks is What Jason Told me. I have one, a .45 Cal 1:20 Twist Rice Barrel that is, Probably The Most Accurate Muzzleloader Barrel i own, That say’s a BUNCH! I am just about to order another one of his 1” Breech Plugs for another Long Range Barrel Build i have Going

 

[Idaholewis]

The 1” Rice plug costs more, But I believe they are worth it instead of a Cast Plug, The Rice is CNC Machined

That .40 Cal you speak of SURE sounds INTERESTING! What are your Plans for a Bullet to Shoot out of it? Grease Groove, Paper Patch, Jacketed?

 

[Matthew323]

The 1” Rice plug costs more, But I believe they are worth it instead of a Cast Plug, The Rice is CNC Machined

That .40 Cal you speak of SURE sounds INTERESTING! What are your Plans for a Bullet to Shoot out of it? Grease Groove, Paper Patch, Jacketed?

 

[Matthew323]

Lewis, I was going to start another thread about bullets.........

I was thinking about slightly modifying Accurate Molds #41-400B. As is, that bullet has 51.163% of it's length riding the lands (it's 1.290" long). In pure lead it should weigh approximately 415.1 grains.

Because the bottom three bands are larger in diameter than the upper three bands, I figure this bullet was designed to be shot out of a cartridge case.

The average band diameter is 0.4035".

Bullet shooting will be a completely new thing for me. I am going to need lots of advice from all of youse guys that know what you're doing.

I was going to ask Tom at Accurate to modify the bullet so it would shoot properly out of a muzzleloader.

If I recall, you mostly use a 1-16 lead/tin ratio, correct?

How much larger than bore diameter do you usually want your bullets to drop out of the molds?

And, how far down are you generally sizing them.

I do not think I will have the means to shoot like you do, so I am pretty sure that ALL of my bullet shooting MUST mimic potential hunting situations.

I do not anticipate spending any more time than is absolutely necessary on a bench, than to develop accurate loads. Once that occurs, I will spend ALL of my practice time shooting from sitting, kneeling, reverse kneeling, offhand, and various field-supported positions.

Therefore, I am thinking that my bullets will/MUST fit tighter than yours usually do, correct?

Thanks,
Bruce

 

[Idaholewis]

Lewis, I was going to start another thread about bullets.........

I was thinking about slightly modifying Accurate Molds #41-400B. As is, that bullet has 51.163% of it's length riding the lands (it's 1.290" long). In pure lead it should weigh approximately 415.1 grains.

Because the bottom three bands are larger in diameter than the upper three bands, I figure this bullet was designed to be shot out of a cartridge case.

The average band diameter is 0.4035".

Bullet shooting will be a completely new thing for me. I am going to need lots of advice from all of youse guys that know what you're doing.

I was going to ask Tom at Accurate to modify the bullet so it would shoot properly out of a muzzleloader.

If I recall, you mostly use a 1-16 lead/tin ratio, correct?

How much larger than bore diameter do you usually want your bullets to drop out of the molds?

And, how far down are you generally sizing them.

I do not think I will have the means to shoot like you do, so I am pretty sure that ALL of my bullet shooting MUST mimic potential hunting situations.

I do not anticipate spending any more time than is absolutely necessary on a bench, than to develop accurate loads. Once that occurs, I will spend ALL of my practice time shooting from sitting, kneeling, reverse kneeling, offhand, and various field-supported positions.

Therefore, I am thinking that my bullets will/MUST fit tighter than yours usually do, correct?

Thanks,
Bruce

Are you set on the 1:16 Twist?

 

[Idaholewis]

Here is why i ask. I put in 1500 Fps, That is about TOP end of what you Will get

See the Green Number here? The Military Standard for Stability is 1.5

Here is your Bullet above, with a 1:16 Twist. At 2.601 that isn’t ideal, I would Try and Stay Closer to the 1.5 Military Standard

Like this, MUCH Better, if it were me, i would go 1:20 Twist. This is 1:21 Twist Which is IDEAL

 

[Idaholewis]

Also remember with these Smaller Bores they Build a LOT of Pressure, Faster. Therefore they are BRUTAL on Nipples!! Your .40 Won’t be near as Bad as this, But it will be Worse than a .45, Just a Heads up

This is my Fast Twist .36 Cal, it’s actually a 9MM, 1:15 Twist, I had Jim Carpenter Build this Barrel For me

340 Grains

This is what Happens to a BRAND New Treso/Ampco Nipple (EXTREMELY DURABLE Nipples!!) in ONLY 10-12 Shots Through the Above Small Bore Rifle. I had to go to a Platinum Lined Nipple at 60.00 Bucks

It’s Fun to Shoot

 

[Matthew323]

I was not aware of the pressure issues with the smaller bore bullet barrels, especially not the way they eat away at the flash hole in the nipple.

I may have to rethink the fast twist Scout Rifle concept, and go back to my original idea which was a .58 caliber × 21" long × 1" octagon × 1-48" twist round ball barrel from Rice, Colerain, or Kelley.

With the bigger hole it would weigh less, and truth be told, I'll in all likelihood keep my shots under 100 yards anyway.

A 277 grain pure lead round ball will kill ANYTHING on the North American continent. All I'll be hunting are deer, black bears, and feral hogs so a long range bullet barrel is kinda a want, not need thing.

 

[Sideshow]

Here is why i ask. I put in 1500 Fps, That is about TOP end of what you Will get

See the Green Number here? The Military Standard for Stability is 1.5

Here is your Bullet above, with a 1:16 Twist. At 2.601 that isn’t ideal, I would Try and Stay Closer to the 1.5 Military Standard

Like this, MUCH Better, if it were me, i would go 1:20 Twist. This is 1:21 Twist Which is IDEAL

Just a question here lewis , i wonder why Doc White used a 1 in 16 for my .410 super 91 then ?? I been shooting a 400gr bullet REALLY well . Iirc i think i can stabilize up to either 460 or 490 gr i cant remember which . I know many BPCR guys shoot a 430 in their 40's . Boy now im kinda curious just why Doc chose that twist . Makes ya wonder dont it ???

 

[Idaholewis]

Just a question here lewis , i wonder why Doc White used a 1 in 16 for my .410 super 91 then ?? I been shooting a 400gr bullet REALLY well . Iirc i think i can stabilize up to either 460 or 490 gr i cant remember which . I know many BPCR guys shoot a 430 in their 40's . Boy now im kinda curious just why Doc chose that twist . Makes ya wonder dont it ???

Doc also used a 1:15 Twist .361 to Win the Manufacturers Match at Friendship YEARS ago, This is why i Chose the 1:15 Twist for the .36 Cal Rifle Build above. After having the Barrel above Built, and EATING up Nipples in Just a Few Shots, I have OFTEN wondered How his .361 Inline Rifles were on Breech Plugs? Since Doc’s Breech Plug and Nipple is 1 Unit Built Together, I would BET those Guy’s Shooting them Carried SEVERAL Breech Plugs so they Could Change them out as the Flash Hole Rapidly Grew

The Difference in my Setup and Doc’s is, Mine is a Sidelock vs his being inline ignition, and my Barrel is 32” Long, I don’t know what the Barrel Length was on Doc’s .361s? But i bet they were NOT 32” Long like mine. My Barrel Would Generate MORE Pressure, Due to the Slightly Smaller Bore, And longer Barrel

 

[Sideshow]

Doc also used a 1:15 Twist .361 to Win the Manufacturers Match at Friendship YEARS ago, This is why i Chose the 1:15 Twist for the .36 Cal Rifle Build above. After having the Barrel above Built, and EATING up Nipples in Just a Few Shots, I have OFTEN wondered How his .361 Inline Rifles were on Breech Plugs? Since Doc’s Breech Plug and Nipple is 1 Unit Built Together, I would BET those Guy’s Shooting them Carried SEVERAL Breech Plugs so they Could Change them out as the Flash Hole Rapidly Grew

The Difference in my Setup and Doc’s is, Mine is a Sidelock vs his being inline ignition, and my Barrel is 32” Long, I don’t know what the Barrel Length was on Doc’s .361s? But i bet they were NOT 32” Long like mine. My Barrel Would Generate MORE Pressure, Due to the Slightly Smaller Bore, And longer Barrel

Yea Doc had big$$$ platinum nipples on those Varminters . Either 26 or 28 in barrels too . My 410 sure beats up nipples . I put a ventliner in mine .

 

[Idaholewis]

I was not aware of the pressure issues with the smaller bore bullet barrels, especially not the way they eat away at the flash hole in the nipple.

I may have to rethink the fast twist Scout Rifle concept, and go back to my original idea which was a .58 caliber × 21" long × 1" octagon × 1-48" twist round ball barrel from Rice, Colerain, or Kelley.

With the bigger hole it would weigh less, and truth be told, I'll in all likelihood keep my shots under 100 yards anyway.

A 277 grain pure lead round ball will kill ANYTHING on the North American continent. All I'll be hunting are deer, black bears, and feral hogs so a long range bullet barrel is kinda a want, not need thing.

Another BIG NEGATIVE to keep in mind with the Small FAST Twist SIDELOCKS is EXTREME Fouling, I am Talking Real Blackpowder since it is all i use. They literally “CHOKE” themselves out after 2 Shots MAX. I shoot the Cold Bore, Swab the Bore, Then Reload and Shoot again, Sometimes even this 2nd Shot will Slightly Hangfire. If I simply Swab the Bore this Time and Reload i will be Heading Home with a PLUGGED up Rifle that will NOT fire. BEEN THERE, DONE THAT!!

After EACH Shot, i Swab the Bore good, Cap the Rifle and point Barrel Straight to the Ground and POP that Cap off STRAIGHT through, You Can see the FOULING/Crud Trickle out on the Ground, The Concussion of the Cap Going Off is Clearing/Breaking Free the Fouling/Crud that is CHOKED UP in the Flash Channel, If i forget to Do this? I am heading Home with a PLUGGED up, Loaded Rifle That Won’t Fire!

My 1-18 Twist .45 Cal Does The EXACT same thing as above, Just not Quite as Bad. It’s a FAST Twist Sidelock Thing and REAL BLACKPOWDER, They “CHOKE” themselves out, The Flash Channel Plugs up, The FASTER the Twist, The Worse the Problem. And of course the Smaller the Bore The WORSE this will be.

I’ve learned a Few things in this Stuff over the few years I’ve been at it If i were to EVER build another Small Bore Fast Twist Sidelock Muzzleloader, it would NOT BE Under a .40 Cal, And i would Stay in the 1:20-1:24 Twist Range

 

[Sideshow]

Another BIG NEGATIVE to keep in mind with the Small FAST Twist SIDELOCKS is EXTREME Fouling, I am Talking Real Blackpowder since it is all i use. They literally “CHOKE” themselves out after 2 Shots MAX. I shoot the Cold Bore, Swab the Bore, Then Reload and Shoot again, Sometimes even this 2nd Shot will Slightly Hangfire. If I simply Swab the Bore this Time and Reload i will be Heading Home with a PLUGGED up Rifle that will NOT fire. BEEN THERE, DONE THAT!!

After EACH Shot, i Swab the Bore good, Cap the Rifle and point Barrel Straight to the Ground and POP that Cap off STRAIGHT through, You Can see the FOULING/Crud Trickle out on the Ground, The Concussion of the Cap Going Off is Clearing/Breaking Free the Fouling/Crud that is CHOKED UP in the Flash Channel, If i forget to Do this? I am heading Home with a PLUGGED up, Loaded Rifle That Won’t Fire!

My 1-18 Twist .45 Cal Does The EXACT same thing as above, Just not Quite as Bad. It’s a FAST Twist Sidelock Thing and REAL BLACKPOWDER, They “CHOKE” themselves out, The Flash Channel Plugs up, The FASTER the Twist, The Worse the Problem. And of course the Smaller the Bore The WORSE this will be.

I’ve learned a Few things in this Stuff over the few years I’ve been at it If i were to EVER build another Small Bore Fast Twist Sidelock Muzzleloader, it would NOT BE Under a .40 Cal, And i would Stay in the 1:20-1:24 Twist Range

This is why shooting as much as you do is so valuable . You LEARN things hands on . Just cuz its always been done this way or that sure dont always make it the BEST WAY !!! There will always be room for improvement . Thats where experiance and being a innovator is so valuable . I try to chase that concept in just about everything i do . Sure can discover some exceptionally cool things doing stuff this way !!! You also find out some popular concepts fly like lead balloons too !!! Lol !!! You definately wouldnt be where are today and know what you know just sittin around doing the S.O.S. thats for sure !!! You even get to help some guys like Sideshow REALLY tighten his groups with just the use of half a cotton ball !!! Who'da ever thunk that but you.....
Well done Idaholewis , well done .

 

[Idaholewis]

Look at my Educational Cutout of my Old Renegade Breech Plug. Look at the Flash Channel, You can see why it CHOKES up with CRUD, And When you pour the Next Powder Charge Down it Simply Cannot Get through That Crud, and under the Nipple where it needs to be in order to get ignition, Therefore you have a HANGFIRE at best, Or FAIL TO FIRE at Worst

You RARELY, IF EVER hear of this Problem with Slow Twist (Roundball) Sidelocks, They can keep Shooting, and Shooting them All Day Long, The Slow Twists DON’T have the Amount Back Pressure, And CHOKE Out Like the REALLY Fast Twist Sidelocks Do. It is IMPERATIVE that you Pop a Cap off To Break this Crud/Fouling Free from the Flash Channel in the FAST TWIST SIDELOCKS, By popping the Cap Straight Through You are Clearing the Flash Channel from the Concussion of the Cap going off, this Allows the Next Powder Charge to Freely Flow through, and Under the Nipple where it Belongs

 

[Idaholewis]

Yep, it’s somewhat of an inconvenience to have to Pop a Cap Through these FAST TWIST Sidelock Barrels, But it’s the NATURE OF THE BEAST, I accept them for what they are. I know what i need to do in order to make them Run TROUBLE Free I shoot these things SO MUCH that it’s simply “Routine” to me. Like tying a Shoe BUT now and then i make a Mistake and Forget to pop that Cap off which Clears the Flash Channel, The few RARE occasions i do this, All i can i hope for at this point is a Hangfire, BUT if i end getting a FAIL To fire i have to Pull the Nipple and Trickle a tiny bit of Powder in, Replace the Nipple, Cap it, and BOOM.

 

[Sideshow]

Yep, it’s somewhat of an inconvenience to have to Pop a Cap Through these FAST TWIST Sidelock Barrels, But it’s the NATURE OF THE BEAST, I accept them for what they are. I know what i need to do in order to make them Run TROUBLE Free I shoot these things SO MUCH that it’s simply “Routine” to me. Like tying a Shoe BUT now and then i make a Mistake and Forget to pop that Cap off, and Clear the Flash Channel, All i can i hope for at this point is a Hangfire, if i get a FAIL To fire i have to Pull the Nipple and Trickle a tiny bit of Powder in, Replace and BOOM.

You ever tried gettin in there with a small Dremmel tool bit to smooth out ,broaden , and kinda shorten that channel in effect ??? Dont know if that would help or not but sure seems like it might ?? A bit of Permatex Thread Sealant #80632 put on that housings / barrels threads Probably (?) would/could make it easily removeable too if that idea didnt fly . Kinda might look a bit like a slender curved funnel pointed back up towards the nipple at the smallest point . No kinks either . Just a thought.......

 

[GM54-120]

Just a FYI
McGowen offers
.400x.408 in 1-16, 1-18 and 1-20
.402x.409 in 1-18

They also offer octagon contouring but its EXPENSIVE. Cost more than the blank costs. Just a 4140 blank is about $200. In octagon its $450ish.

 

[Sideshow]

Just a FYI
McGowen offers
.400x.408 in 1-16, 1-18 and 1-20
.402x.409 in 1-18

They also offer octagon contouring but its EXPENSIVE. Cost more than the blank costs. Just a 4140 blank is about $200. In octagon its $450ish.

I saw that . Hoyt will put in a liner for $200 if you got a barrel thats bad too in several different calibers. $125 for a rebore if you wanna go bigger . They say his work is really good . I hear many BPCR guys use him to fix up a nice find with a bad barrel .

 

[GM54-120]

Here is your Bullet above, with a 1:16 Twist. At 2.601 that isn’t ideal, I would Try and Stay Closer to the 1.5 Military Standard

I dont remember what RBinAR went with in the early 40cal SML days other than the land groove. They were 1-16 or 1-18....... BUT...

What does Perdersoli use in the Gibbs 40cal.............1-16
What does GMB use for 40-65............................1-16

Funny part is neither of the above is just for 400gr+ bullets. The Pedersoli 40cal mold is about a 310gr. A 40-65 shoots a sub 300gr bullet upto around 1500fps. Westerns website lists a 410gr at 1290fps as a max load. Buffalo Arms are 280gr to 405gr. So it sounds like 1-16 is in the ballpark even though its over stabilized in the calculators. We know Doc White used 280gr to 400gr bullets but nothing is much over 1400fps.