Breech plug question for Idaholewis

[Sideshow]

I dont remember what RBinAR went with in the early 40cal SML days other than the land groove. They were 1-16 or 1-18....... BUT...

What does Perdersoli use in the Gibbs 40cal.............1-16
What does GMB use for 40-65............................1-16

Funny part is neither of the above is just for 400gr+ bullets. The Pedersoli 40cal mold is about a 310gr. A 40-65 shoots a sub 300gr bullet upto around 1500fps. Westerns website lists a 410gr at 1290fps as a max load. Buffalo Arms are 280gr to 405gr. So it sounds like 1-16 is in the ballpark even though its over stabilized in the calculators. We know Doc White used 280gr to 400gr bullets but nothing is much over 1400fps.

What ever happened to RBinAR ?? I dont see him around or any of his scince evolved 40 cal tech .

 

[GM54-120]

He passed away many years ago

 

[Sideshow]

He passed away many years ago

RIP our brother . I didnt know .

 

[GM54-120]

Been just over 9 years. His name was Rick Bibby.
http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/thread/6619/memory-rick-bibby

 

[Sideshow]

Lewis, I was going to start another thread about bullets.........

I was thinking about slightly modifying Accurate Molds #41-400B. As is, that bullet has 51.163% of it's length riding the lands (it's 1.290" long). In pure lead it should weigh approximately 415.1 grains.

Because the bottom three bands are larger in diameter than the upper three bands, I figure this bullet was designed to be shot out of a cartridge case.

The average band diameter is 0.4035".

Bullet shooting will be a completely new thing for me. I am going to need lots of advice from all of youse guys that know what you're doing.

I was going to ask Tom at Accurate to modify the bullet so it would shoot properly out of a muzzleloader.

If I recall, you mostly use a 1-16 lead/tin ratio, correct?

How much larger than bore diameter do you usually want your bullets to drop out of the molds?

And, how far down are you generally sizing them.

I do not think I will have the means to shoot like you do, so I am pretty sure that ALL of my bullet shooting MUST mimic potential hunting situations.

I do not anticipate spending any more time than is absolutely necessary on a bench, than to develop accurate loads. Once that occurs, I will spend ALL of my practice time shooting from sitting, kneeling, reverse kneeling, offhand, and various field-supported positions.

Therefore, I am thinking that my bullets will/MUST fit tighter than yours usually do, correct?

Thanks,
Bruce

Doc White used 98% lead and 2% tin which is about 40 to 1 for his powerpunch conicals . He also used a slipfit of about .001 in . Accuracy will improve as you go tighter but so will loading difficulty a bit . The 16 to 1 lead mix is what alot use for the money bullet and those with long ogjives for high bc so they fight nose slump .

 

[Sideshow]

Been just over 9 years. His name was Rick Bibby.
http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/thread/6619/memory-rick-bibby

Thank you . Ive really enjoyed his writings here . Wish i could have known him . Thanks for that link , beautiful tribute to a special man .

 

[Idaholewis]

I dont remember what RBinAR went with in the early 40cal SML days other than the land groove. They were 1-16 or 1-18....... BUT...

What does Perdersoli use in the Gibbs 40cal.............1-16
What does GMB use for 40-65............................1-16

Funny part is neither of the above is just for 400gr+ bullets. The Pedersoli 40cal mold is about a 310gr. A 40-65 shoots a sub 300gr bullet upto around 1500fps. Westerns website lists a 410gr at 1290fps as a max load. Buffalo Arms are 280gr to 405gr. So it sounds like 1-16 is in the ballpark even though its over stabilized in the calculators. We know Doc White used 280gr to 400gr bullets but nothing is much over 1400fps.

Twist Rate and Bullet Selection can be somewhat confusing, especially if you Follow Twist Rate Calculators, It’s hard to Argue with actual Success in the Field. I have played with Numbers for my Fast Twist .45s, .50s, and .54s, Going off Bullet Weights/Lengths that i have WELL PROVEN to Shoot in my Rifles/Twists. According to the Calculators they are Not OPTIMUM either? I believe Where this Comes in to play, and be noticeable is at REALLY Long Range. Far Far Beyond where the Average guy would EVER BEGIN to think about Shooting. What is Really Long Range? I consider 600-700 Yards Long, Especially with these Muzzleloaders. 800 Yards, and of course anything Beyond is a REALLY LONG Poke with these Things!! And where i find it gets REALLY CHALLENGING, Especially with BIG HEAVY LEAD, Moving at Slow Blackpowder Velocities of 1300-1400 FPS out of the Muzzle

A good example of Twist NOT lining up is my Fast 1:28 Twist .54 Cal, 1 of the VERY BEST shooting bullets i own just so happens to be my Shortest, and lightest .54 Cal Bullet (Lyman Plains) at .85 Long, and 460 Grains, When you run these numbers on a Twist Calculator they DON’T Line up!! But I know for a FACT this Bullet will Shoot 1 Ragged Hole out to 100 Yards. BUT, I believe if you were to Try at 500, better yet 800 Yards, That is where I believe these Calculators come in to Play? Again, FAR FAR beyond where any average person will EVER BEGIN to Shoot

See how Far out this is from the Military Standard of 1.5

Here is how that Bullet Shoots at 100 Yards, i have shot this Bullet Better than this MANY Times, Literally a Ragged Hole

 

[Sideshow]

Twist Rate and Bullet Selection can be somewhat confusing, especially if you Follow Twist Rate Calculators, It’s hard to Argue with actual Success in the Field. I have played with Numbers for my Fast Twist .45s, .50s, and .54s, Going off Bullet Weights/Lengths that i have WELL PROVEN to Shoot in my Rifles/Twists. According to the Calculators they are Not OPTIMUM either? I believe Where this Comes in to play, and be noticeable is at REALLY Long Range. Far Far Beyond where the Average guy would EVER BEGIN to think about Shooting. What is Really Long Range? I consider 600-700 Yards Long, Especially with these Muzzleloaders. 800 Yards, and of course anything Beyond is a REALLY LONG Poke with these Things!! And where i find it gets REALLY CHALLENGING, Especially with BIG HEAVY LEAD, Moving at Slow Blackpowder Velocities of 1300-1400 FPS out of the Muzzle

A good example of Twist NOT lining up is my Fast 1:28 Twist .54 Cal, 1 of the VERY BEST shooting bullets i own just so happens to be my Shortest, and lightest .54 Cal Bullet (Lyman Plains) at .85 Long, and 460 Grains, When you run these numbers on a Twist Calculator they DON’T Line up!! But I know for a FACT this Bullet will Shoot 1 Ragged Hole out to 100 Yards. BUT, I believe if you were to Try at 500, better yet 800 Yards, That is where I believe these Calculators come in to Play? Again, FAR FAR beyond where any average person will EVER BEGIN to Shoot

See how Far out this is from the Military Standard of 1.5

Here is how that Bullet Shoots at 100 Yards, i have shot this Bullet Better than this MANY Times, Literally a Ragged Hole

Very well put .

 

[Matthew323]

Do the breech plugs foul the same way when a Maxi-Ball, Maxi-Hunter, Great Plains, Minie Ball, etc. is shot through a 1-48" twist .50, .54, or .58 caliber T/C barrel?

I am so used to shooting long strings of shots with a flintlock w/o wiping that this has me concerned. The idea of shooting caps to unfoul the breech plug seems counterintuitive to me.

Bruce

 

[Idaholewis]

Do the breech plugs foul the same way when a Maxi-Ball, Maxi-Hunter, Great Plains, Minie Ball, etc. is shot through a 1-48" twist .50, .54, or .58 caliber T/C barrel?

I am so used to shooting long strings of shots with a flintlock w/o wiping that this has me concerned. The idea of shooting caps to unfoul the breech plug seems counterintuitive to me.

Bruce

No, You won’t have ANY Problems like this with the Calibers/Twist you mention

the ONLY times I encounter this problem is with My 2 REALLY FAST twist Barrels, Both are 32” Long, The 1:15 Twist .36 Cal is By FAR The Worst for it. And my 1:18 Twist .45 Cal, It will do it as Well, But not nearly as Bad as the Smaller .36 Bore

My 1:28s, 1:30s and 1:32 Can be Shot MULTIPLE times with no problems. In all honesty, I rarely Shoot them like that though. My No. 1 Goal is TIP TOP Accuracy from my Guns, For Consistency I swab the Bore Between EVERY shot, The same each time. It has Become Habit for me to Pop 1 Cap Straight Through to “BREAK UP” any Crud/Fouling that is Stuck/Clung in the Fire Channel/Patented Breech, You can see it Trickle out on the Ground. I then start my Re load Process. Yep, it Costs me 2 Caps Per Shot. I am 100% Ok with that, i have NEVER had a Hang, or Fail to Fire When Doing this Procedure.

Remember, I shoot Swiss Real Blackpowder in my Muzzleloaders, It leaves a Dry, Course type Fouling. I have not tested the Substitute Powders for this? My guess is they will do it as well? Maybe not as Bad? Or could be Worse?

 

[Matthew323]

The only thing I have shot is DuPont and Goex black powders, fffg mostly.

Do you think the relative humidity in Idaho has anything to do with the dry, crusty fouling that you experience with Swiss black powders?

I wonder if the fouling will be different here in the mid-Atlantic states?

I will not be searching for the type of sub-minute of angle accuracy that you strive for.

With a Leupold scope, and an illuminated reticle, all I truly need is 2MOA out to 150 meters. Because, unless I turn into one h**l of a rifleman in my old age, I have PROMISED myself that ethics and responsibility to the animal, regardless of its size, comes first.

Which means NO CHANCY SHOTS. Regardless of the range. Even if the rifle does have a scope atop it. No matter if a bullet, or a ball comes out the muzzle.

Which means NOT SHOOTING OFFHAND, unless that is the only choice. And that choice will result in a clean kill.

Which means I have A LOT OF PRACTICE ahead of me in sitting, kneeling, and various field-supported positions.

Plus, offhand snap shooting at close distances (25 meters or closer?).

I think my pipe dreams have led me down the road to small caliber, fast twist, grease groove bullets, over top of real black powder and a lightly greased wool wad.

When ALL my experience is with patched balls at slower velocities. I've owned, and shot; .45, .50, & .62 caliber flintlock long rifles. I've shot most of the other common calibers owned by someone else.

Thanks,
Bruce

 

[eekjellander]

Yep, it’s somewhat of an inconvenience to have to Pop a Cap Through these FAST TWIST Sidelock Barrels, But it’s the NATURE OF THE BEAST, I accept them for what they are. I know what i need to do in order to make them Run TROUBLE Free I shoot these things SO MUCH that it’s simply “Routine” to me. Like tying a Shoe BUT now and then i make a Mistake and Forget to pop that Cap off which Clears the Flash Channel, The few RARE occasions i do this, All i can i hope for at this point is a Hangfire, BUT if i end getting a FAIL To fire i have to Pull the Nipple and Trickle a tiny bit of Powder in, Replace the Nipple, Cap it, and BOOM.

I shoot weekly my 1-18 twist 45 lined by Bob Hoyt iand also shoot long 4-700yd March-April if warm enough . I also wipe between shots using 80 grains 1 1/2 and 2 F OE under a 443 -530gr-Eliptical -9Lb paper . I use instead of #11 caps ,a Magspark using cci /209 primers and do not experience the erosion mentioned ,in fact will be the 2nd season with the Magspark . Not entirely traditional but no back pressure and rainproof ,works for me /Ed

 

[Idaholewis]

I shoot weekly my 1-18 twist 45 lined by Bob Hoyt iand also shoot long 4-700yd March-April if warm enough . I also wipe between shots using 80 grains 1 1/2 and 2 F OE under a 443 -530gr-Eliptical -9Lb paper . I use instead of #11 caps ,a Magspark using cci /209 primers and do not experience the erosion mentioned ,in fact will be the 2nd season with the Magspark . Not entirely traditional but no back pressure and rainproof ,works for me /Ed

I was gonna go that Route LONG Ago, in fact i had it ALL set up to do so, But after some Talking With Guy’s that i fully Trust, They did NOT Recommend it (the Magspark) in fact they HIGHLY advised against it. Here is my 1-18 Twist, 32” Green Mountain Barrel (Idahoron gifted me this Barrel) You can Clearly see the Magspark Here. All i use the Magspark for is Fouling my Barrels before a Hunt, I have NEVER actually used it to Shoot. I use Regular nipples with No. 11 Caps. Swiss 2F Blackpowder

 

[Idaholewis]

Here is a Link to that thread, Post 14 is where i ask the Question

https://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/threads/ml-cleaner-for-bh209.31261/

 

[Idaholewis]

I shoot weekly my 1-18 twist 45 lined by Bob Hoyt iand also shoot long 4-700yd March-April if warm enough . I also wipe between shots using 80 grains 1 1/2 and 2 F OE under a 443 -530gr-Eliptical -9Lb paper . I use instead of #11 caps ,a Magspark using cci /209 primers and do not experience the erosion mentioned ,in fact will be the 2nd season with the Magspark . Not entirely traditional but no back pressure and rainproof ,works for me /Ed

I didn’t pay enough attention to your post, I assumed you were Talking BH209

I can see the Magspark Working really Well with Real Blackpowder in a Sidelock, and i can also see it Doing away with the “Choking Out” Problem i Have with No. 11 Caps. The thing I would question is Carbon Buildup From 209s in the Snail/Fire Channel/Patented Breech of a Sidelock, You haven’t had any issues there? Anything special in your Cleaning Routine to Combat the Carbon from the 209s?

It’s not a Big deal in an inline, You can easily twist a Bit by Hand Through the Fire Channel to Cut it out, But how do you do this in a Sidelock?

 

[eekjellander]

I didn’t pay enough attention to your post, I assumed you were Talking BH209

I can see the Magspark Working really Well with Real Blackpowder in a Sidelock, and i can also see it Doing away with the “Choking Out” Problem i Have with No. 11 Caps. The thing I would question is Carbon Buildup From 209s in the Snail/Fire Channel/Patented Breech of a Sidelock, You haven’t had any issues there? Anything special in your Cleaning Routine to Combat the Carbon from the 209s?

It’s not a Big deal in an inline, You can easily twist a Bit by Hand Through the Fire Channel to Cut it out, But how do you do this in a Sidelock?

No sir I mentioned my long range Renagade because it gets shot every Friday but 7 of my side locks have Magsparks ,hunt with those but as mentioned wiped between shots . With your cleaning between shots I don "t think there"s a problem . The barrel has the same magspark in place as I flush the barrel thru it when done. I think back pressure is eliminated along with water for hunting as long as the muzzle is taped shut . Just order spare caps cause if you drop it it while hunting it will end your day /works for me Ed

 

[eekjellander]

I was gonna go that Route LONG Ago, in fact i had it ALL set up to do so, But after some Talking With Guy’s that i fully Trust, They did NOT Recommend it (the Magspark) in fact they HIGHLY advised against it. Here is my 1-18 Twist, 32” Green Mountain Barrel (Idahoron gifted me this Barrel) You can Clearly see the Magspark Here. All i use the Magspark for is Fouling my Barrels before a Hunt, I have NEVER actually used it to Shoot. I use Regular nipples with No. 11 Caps. Swiss 2F Blackpowder

When you get time I’d like to hear why , I haven’t had any issues other than losing a cap and I lose lots of stuff! PM if that works/ thanks Ed

 

[Idaholewis]

When you get time I’d like to hear why , I haven’t had any issues other than losing a cap and I lose lots of stuff! PM if that works/ thanks Ed

Ed, I can’t speak for the Magspark 209, at least from hands on use as i never used it? There was several guy’s on here that HIGHLY advised against it back when i was contemplating using it, I knew nothing about them back then? I took the advice and didn’t use it. The only thing i use mine for is Fouling a Clean Bore by Popping 2-3 Fed 209as Through it, Then load for Hunting

I know you have used these Magspark 209s for Years with Excellent results, I don’t dispute that all I chose to stick with #11 Percussion Caps as they are extremely reliable with Real Blackpowder, Regardless of Flash Hole size

 

[Idaholewis]

When you get time I’d like to hear why , I haven’t had any issues other than losing a cap and I lose lots of stuff! PM if that works/ thanks Ed

Here is the thread, back in 2017
https://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/threads/ml-cleaner-for-bh209.31261/
Here is more recent on the Magspark 209
https://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/threads/magspark-209-adapter.38634/

 

[sdporter]

I was not aware of the pressure issues with the smaller bore bullet barrels, especially not the way they eat away at the flash hole in the nipple.

I may have to rethink the fast twist Scout Rifle concept, and go back to my original idea which was a .58 caliber × 21" long × 1" octagon × 1-48" twist round ball barrel from Rice, Colerain, or Kelley.

With the bigger hole it would weigh less, and truth be told, I'll in all likelihood keep my shots under 100 yards anyway.

A 277 grain pure lead round ball will kill ANYTHING on the North American continent. All I'll be hunting are deer, black bears, and feral hogs so a long range bullet barrel is kinda a want, not need thing.

Why so short?