Couple of powder questions

[Super 91]

Hey guys, I got me a project going that I could use some help on. I have a .451 barrel I made for my Encore that is built on the White shallow groove barrel. A kind member of this forum has supplied me with the needed 300 grain Barnes Expanders in .451 that I needed, and they fit my bore just loose enough to slide down the bore slowly as they have to force the air out the nipple, but they don't engrave one bit.

I am going to knurl these bullets so they will engage the lands so that the bullet will stay in place. I plan on using an over powder wad or card. I annealed the bullets and quenched them in water so they will stay soft. I heated them with a torch till cherry red (glowing all the way through) and pushed them over into a bucket of water. I understand this is the way to make copper stay soft. I like a full bore conical as I am a conical sort of guy. I am hoping that annealing the copper will allow it to obturate into the riflings and make for a very accurate round. I like the design of the Barnes and high hopes it will fly well out of my gun.

I have mounted the scope and am ready to go except for a few questions.

I need to know which powder you guys would use. The barrel is rifle barrel quality steel 410, and I have shot smokeless in it before but with bad results because I was using pure lead and was leading the bore and accuracy went crazy and I did not have a way to clean the bore at the range at that time.

I plan on using Winchester 209-A primers, but I do have Cheddite and Remington 209-4's as well if you think these would do better. I plan on using the Winchesters as I figured I would use the hottest primer I had to make the powder went off.

I will list the powders I do have, and you guys tell me what you think.

AA 5744
IMR 4831
IMR 3031
Alliant Powder- Reloader 10X
Hodgdon H 4895
H 380

I have weighed out some vials of AA 5744. I plan on starting with 45 grains weighed and move up and down to achieve my best load.

Any thoughts on these other powders or anything else I should do?

This gun is called the Super Fusion. I just hope it doesn't go Super Nova! :shock:

 

[paia]

I would definitely go with 5744--that will be the easiest to ignite and if you have problems I am guessing it will be with ignition since you don't have a very tight bullet/bore seal. But I'm just guessing. Good luck and let us know how you make out.

 

[Super 91]

The card wad (Walter's Wads) fits pretty tight, so I am hoping that will seal the gas in helping with ignition, but that is a major concern for me at this point, but I think with 5744 I should be okay.

I notice a lot of you guy seem to like N110. How does it meter? Does it ignite easily?

 

[Grouse]

Bob,
I WOULD NOT USE 5744. It creates way to much pressure for shooting smokeless in an Encore. Did you have a new breech plug made? I would use N120 or 4198, they are low pressure loads. I would shoot 200grn bullets as well. Barnes makes a 195grn all copper bullet. SW on this board loves them.

 

[snshunts]

I heated them with a torch till cherry red (glowing all the way through) and pushed them over into a bucket of water. I understand this is the way to make copper stay soft.

Unless I am mixing up my metallurgical terms, what you are doing is not annealling. My understanding is that annealling is heating a metal to a certain temperature and letting it cool to ambient temperature slowly.

The process you are describing sounds like quench hardening to me, and will actually harden the outer shell of metal.

The above holds true for carbon steel, but maybe copper is different than carbon steel in this sense?

 

[DW]

Pressure builds faster in a .45 than in a .50, that is a high charge of 5744 even in a .50. Remember you have the sabot to save you if your charge is too hot, with sabotless you do not have that luxury.

 

[BillinWV]

Your method of annealling will work somewhat on thin material such as brass cases, but even then you will not be consistant. To successfully anneal a material you must raise it up to a temperature then slowly cool it down in a controlled fashion. These time/temperature curves depend on the type of compressive or tension levels that you require and what material you are working with. The method that you have used is more like "work hardening" the surface which tends to make a material stronger on the surface but can be brittle. I don't think this will help you but knurling between two files will.

My experience comes from 20 years in the glass industry and as a hobby gun/blacksmith, but am far from a real expert in changing the crystal structure arrangement of a material. There are others here who can give more information in these areas.

The good thing here is that you are asking questions and proceeding slowly. Be careful with powder choices and I trust you have determined your barrel will be safe for smokeless from a reliable source. I currently know someone pushing his luck shooting smokeless in a T/C 209x50 barrel but have told him he is living on borrowed time........

 

[big6x6]

Absolutely no way would I use AA-5744 in a .45cal smokeless. I'd go the N-120 or H/IMR-4189 route as Tom said.

 

[Super 91]

Bob,
I WOULD NOT USE 5744. It creates way to much pressure for shooting smokeless in an Encore. Did you have a new breech plug made? I would use N120 or 4198, they are low pressure loads. I would shoot 200grn bullets as well. Barnes makes a 195grn all copper bullet. SW on this board loves them.

Just a note, this is NOT and Encore barrel. It is a Criterion barrel made of 410 stainless rifle grade steel and has withstood pressures in the 120,000 without fail.

But I will also work on lessing my charge so I can stay on the weak side and work up. How about I start in the 38 grain range? Thoughts?

And I have two breech plugs. One is standard and the other is one I made to accept the 22 hornet brass.

 

[Super 91]

I heated them with a torch till cherry red (glowing all the way through) and pushed them over into a bucket of water. I understand this is the way to make copper stay soft.

Unless I am mixing up my metallurgical terms, what you are doing is not annealling. My understanding is that annealling is heating a metal to a certain temperature and letting it cool to ambient temperature slowly.

The process you are describing sounds like quench hardening to me, and will actually harden the outer shell of metal.

The above holds true for carbon steel, but maybe copper is different than carbon steel in this sense?

Yes, I am under the impression that steel will harden when quenched in water like I am doing, but copper is supposed to have the exact opposite effect from whart I have been told. Copper tends to "work harden" when pressed or swaged, so heating and water quenching is supposed to allow the copper to once again become soft.

But I am not knowledgeable about this, I'm only going on what I have been told and what I have read.

 

[Super 91]

Absolutely no way would I use AA-5744 in a .45cal smokeless. I'd go the N-120 or H/IMR-4189 route as Tom said.

Okay, enough said there. I certainly don't want to be an idiot here so I will put the 5744 up and go get a can of N-120.

That being said, what load would you suggest I start at given the above info?

 

[paia]

Absolutely no way would I use AA-5744 in a .45cal smokeless. I'd go the N-120 or H/IMR-4189 route as Tom said.

I'd take his advice and not use 5744--I was thinking .50 cal Savage, not .45.

Good luck

 

[DW]

I based my sabotless loads on the data off Hodgdons site for the .450 Marlin rifle but have no idea if your breechplugs will withstand the pressures of those loads on the site.

 

[big6x6]

Absolutely no way would I use AA-5744 in a .45cal smokeless. I'd go the N-120 or H/IMR-4189 route as Tom said.

Okay, enough said there. I certainly don't want to be an idiot here so I will put the 5744 up and go get a can of N-120.

That being said, what load would you suggest I start at given the above info?

I'd start around 55gr of N-120... 58gr of 4198...

 

[SW]

55 gs H-4198 shot a 275BE @ 2400'/sec out of a 25" 450 land to land PacNor barrel. This felt like a fairly hot load. I have forgotten the calculated PSI but believe it was around 41-42K psi. If that's correct, 58g H-4198/300g bullet would be fairly hi pressure(50K or higher). Pressure really goes up as bore size goes down. Breechplug design is critical for smokeless MLing. Ventliner or breechplug wear really goes up are calibers go down. IMR/H-4198,H-322,2015, ,VV-130,VV-133, lower loads of VV-120 and others are good candidates for 45 cal shooting. 5744 is a dangerous choice(absolutely to not be considered), 4759,VV-110 are all too high in pressure for 45s unless low loads are shot. Unless you have a need for the extreme power of a 275 or 300g bullet out of the 45, the 200SST/195 Barnes going 200-300'/sec faster is generally a better choice IMO unless your situation dictates otherwise. That said, I do have a 45 (4495 PacNor-lapped 448) especially made for 250,275,300 Parkers(shot at 2400-2500'/sec) and a 448 PacNor just for saboted 195 Barnes(shot at near 2700'/sec).Also a 40 cal PacNor for 195 Barnes shot at 2570-2777'/sec depending on load.
The key is knowing how to calculate load pressures by load books and, if you have it, Quick Load. A fairly good reloading background is helpful in this.

 

[Super 91]

55 gs H-4198 shot a 275BE @ 2400'/sec out of a 25" 450 land to land PacNor barrel. This felt like a fairly hot load. I have forgotten the calculated PSI but believe it was around 41-42K psi. If that's correct, 58g H-4198/300g bullet would be fairly hi pressure(50K or higher). Pressure really goes up as bore size goes down. Breechplug design is critical for smokeless MLing. Ventliner or breechplug wear really goes up are calibers go down. IMR/H-4198,H-322,2015, ,VV-130,VV-133, lower loads of VV-120 and others are good candidates for 45 cal shooting. 5744 is a dangerous choice(absolutely to not be considered), 4759,VV-110 are all too high in pressure for 45s unless low loads are shot. Unless you have a need for the extreme power of a 275 or 300g bullet out of the 45, the 200SST/195 Barnes going 200-300'/sec faster is generally a better choice IMO unless your situation dictates otherwise. That said, I do have a 45 (4495 PacNor-lapped 448) especially made for 250,275,300 Parkers(shot at 2400-2500'/sec) and a 448 PacNor just for saboted 195 Barnes(shot at near 2700'/sec).Also a 40 cal PacNor for 195 Barnes shot at 2570-2777'/sec depending on load.
The key is knowing how to calculate load pressures by load books and, if you have it, Quick Load. A fairly good reloading background is helpful in this.

SW, thanks for your help. I do have a reloading background, but have not done a complete analysis on my loads quite yet. I am getting info from people here as a starting point, then am going to reference my reloading manuals to see if the loads suggested are within tolerances. I am not going to pull the trigger the first time till I have a safe load that I know and feel will be okay.

Thanks for your input as well. Every bit of info helps.

 

[doggzoe]

When we anneal copper at work, we heat it then let it cool slowly. I'm talking eight 16000 lb coils at a time though. Not sure what cooling it fast would do to it.

Don

 

[Super 91]

So by doing that, does that allow the copper to stay "soft"? What is the purpose of the annealing process you do?

 

[Super 91]

Okay, Sportsmans Warehouse has VV but no N-110 or N-120. I settled for IMR 4198. I checked the web-site for load data, and it seems 55 grains would be a "starting" load with a 300 grain bullet. I think I might go with 50 to start just to be on the safer side.

I also have a fair assortment of bullets to try, and even picked up a few all lead 45cal PR bullets with the orange sabots at 195 grain. So I will get out and toss some lead tomorrow if all goes well. I'll let you guys know how it goes.

Thanks for your help. If ANYONE thinks my load is incorrect, please pm me or post. I will check here before I go blow my head off..... :shock:

 

[SW]

Okay, Sportsmans Warehouse has VV but no N-110 or N-120. I settled for IMR 4198. I might go with 50 to start just to be on the safer side.

I would start with 50. You can always go up. I suspect 52-53 will be about all you'll want/need. So much depends on the integrity of your breechplug design.