Direct Ignition systems

[GM54-120]

Looks like Hank has been busy.
https://hanksprecisiongunparts.com/p/cva-replacement-plug-for-the-accura-optima-wolf
https://hanksprecisiongunparts.com/p/thompson-center-direct-ignition-system

 

[Busta]

I saw that the other day. I'm not loading any rifle on a live primer, even if the firing pin was removed. If i ever went with that type of system, I would make up a dummy module and paint it orange. Load on that, then replace for hunting. We have to remove the primer before transporting the rifle to be considered unloaded, so i would put the dummy in the breech plug.

For Target shooting, this would be a real PITA, so I might consider loading on the dead primer module, then replacing after the first shot.

One very nice thing about this ignition system is it is completely contained in the breech plug, and essentially removes headspace from the equation. As long as your firing pin can set of off the primer, it won't matter if your bolt face or standing breech is compressing the module, as long as it is close enough to prevent the primer cup from backing out of the module.

I would like to see him offer that QRBP machined for the brass or aluminized bronze LRMP modules.

He offers both systems in the CVA Scout TD .45-70 rifle conversions which allows you to use the extractor on the brass/bronze modules.

He's been real busy lately, and added lots of offerings in that Hanks Precision Gun Parts site. A lot of it, like the breech plug conversions are built long and needs to be custom fitted by a Smith or DIY.

He does offer converted Scout TD .45-70 rifles in stock with either Direct or Modular ignition in a couple different package options.

 

[ronlaughlin]

..............I would like to see him offer that QRBP machined for the brass or aluminized bronze LRMP modules...........

Here is a proven system that does exactly what you desire.


The PR adapters are stainless steel, and are very very durable. Because the adapters are stainless, the don't 'crush', and most all the time there will be blow by. This blow by can be cured by utilizing an o-ring. The adapters are a larger diameter than shotgun primers. The primer socket in breech plugs needs to be enlarged for these adapters to fit. This can be done with a 9/32" end mill. One also uses the end mill to make the socket deeper so that one's rifle will go into battery when the o-ring is in place. Another thing done to the breech plugs was to enlarge the flash hole to 0.034". The adapters fit a 22 Hornet shell holder, so they can be easily primed, with any standard priming tool. Spent primers are easily removed in any standard press.

The large rifle magnum primers were tested in sub-zero weather more than once, and there never was a problem igniting Blackhorn powder, after the loaded rifle was left out over night. Unlike shotgun primers, the magnum large rifle primers do not erode flash holes. After 700 shots, measured flash holes were exactly the same as they were at zero shots. It seems like the adapters, and the breech plugs will last forever. ☺

 

[Busta]

I know that can be easily done, and could be for the new Paramount the same way. We talked about that in the Paramount Update thread. I was just over on Cecil's site, and you can buy 10 Large VariFlame Adapters for $20 or 50 for $70. I wonder what the price will be after the Paramount is released? Wonder what CVA will be selling them for?

The VariFlame has been around since 2005. Three years before Blackhorn 209 came on the scene. There are better systems out there today.

https://www.prbullet.com/lrvf.htm

The last time I ordered something from Cecil, he sent it Parcel Post from North Dakota. It went on a US Tour for something like 10 days. Out East, then West, then East, then West, then a few more days in my state before it got to me. Tracking the package was like watching a tennis match.

Then when I checked the package out, I had ordered two different weights of bullets and 3 very expensive breech plugs I didn't need, to do a range report on my dime. He sent all the same weight bullets, and one of the breech plugs was for a completely different rifle. I was even nice enough to give him all the exact dimensions of the proper breech plug, so he could manufacture the right one, and not so much as a thank you. He did refund me the price of the wrong breech plug.

Haven't ordered anything since.

I've got a saying, and it seems to always hold true. "No Good Deed Goes Unpunished!"

Now CVA brings out a really nice rifle that uses PRB's patented proprietary part. No thanks!

Sure, I could drop the O-Ring in the bottom of the pocket and be blowback free like we discussed. No thanks!

Squirrelhawker (Vince) came up with the basic module design that is being used by both Luke and Hank. He was using stainless steel, and they both went with brass and aluminized bronze, which made them soft enough to be totally leak free. The plus side for them is they can be reloaded several times, but are still consumables for the sellers.

The breech plugs by Luke, Hank, and Jeff with the hardened bushings are far superior to the drilled stainless steel flash holes and the vent liner breech plugs.

It could easily be done in Hanks rear sealing CVA QRBP replacement plug, using the brass or aluminized bronze modules, with a bushing in the breech plug.

 

[D55]

Hank offers dummy modules for the DI also. I have 2 of them.

 

[WPrather]

The DIS just isn’t for me. I know it’s muzzeloader hunting and you only have one shot it the gun. But I can think of multiple occasions when I reloaded 2 or 3 times as fast as I can in the woods hunting. My favorite special hunt to get drawled for here in Missouri is Babler State Park and you get 3 tags to fill in 2 days. The DIS system just makes reloading for a second fast shot impossible. I also don’t like carrying extra crap with me in the woods. I would rather stick with my regular 209 primers in my TC Prohunter or CVA Optima myself.

But Hank is the man when it comes to muzzeloaders. If I ever decide to get a smokeless barrel for my TC or a smokeless gun built it will be from Hank with his HIS system. I like his YouTube vids he has built some awesome guns. Cyclops is a monster that turns deer off like they was struck by lightning. Lol

 

[ronlaughlin]

............The last time I ordered something from Cecil..........Haven't ordered anything since.........

One can purchase the adapters here.

 

[Busta]

One can purchase the adapters here.

OK, I'll play along. What if one doesn't want any of those adapters?

 

[ronlaughlin]

So far in USA, one is free not to pursue a purchase one doesn't want.

Seems i misunderstood. You wrote

..............I would like to see him offer that QRBP machined for the brass or aluminized bronze LRMP modules...........

Me, i was just pointing out, what you wished for is available............

 

[Danny Ross]

I saw that the other day. I'm not loading any rifle on a live primer, even if the firing pin was removed. If i ever went with that type of system, I would make up a dummy module and paint it orange. Load on that, then replace for hunting. We have to remove the primer before transporting the rifle to be considered unloaded, so i would put the dummy in the breech plug.

For Target shooting, this would be a real PITA, so I might consider loading on the dead primer module, then replacing after the first shot.

One very nice thing about this ignition system is it is completely contained in the breech plug, and essentially removes headspace from the equation. As long as your firing pin can set of off the primer, it won't matter if your bolt face or standing breech is compressing the module, as long as it is close enough to prevent the primer cup from backing out of the module.

I would like to see him offer that QRBP machined for the brass or aluminized bronze LRMP modules.

He offers both systems in the CVA Scout TD .45-70 rifle conversions which allows you to use the extractor on the brass/bronze modules.

He's been real busy lately, and added lots of offerings in that Hanks Precision Gun Parts site. A lot of it, like the breech plug conversions are built long and needs to be custom fitted by a Smith or DIY.

He does offer converted Scout TD .45-70 rifles in stock with either Direct or Modular ignition in a couple different package options.

 

[Danny Ross]

It seems like not loading on a live primer is an excess of caution, especially since all the new break actions have a transfer bar that separates the hammer from the firing pin. Your primer is more likely to not fire than fire inadvertently.

 

[Danny Ross]

Here is a proven system that does exactly what you desire.


The PR adapters are stainless steel, and are very very durable. Because the adapters are stainless, the don't 'crush', and most all the time there will be blow by. This blow by can be cured by utilizing an o-ring. The adapters are a larger diameter than shotgun primers. The primer socket in breech plugs needs to be enlarged for these adapters to fit. This can be done with a 9/32" end mill. One also uses the end mill to make the socket deeper so that one's rifle will go into battery when the o-ring is in place. Another thing done to the breech plugs was to enlarge the flash hole to 0.034". The adapters fit a 22 Hornet shell holder, so they can be easily primed, with any standard priming tool. Spent primers are easily removed in any standard press.

The large rifle magnum primers were tested in sub-zero weather more than once, and there never was a problem igniting Blackhorn powder, after the loaded rifle was left out over night. Unlike shotgun primers, the magnum large rifle primers do not erode flash holes. After 700 shots, measured flash holes were exactly the same as they were at zero shots. It seems like the adapters, and the breech plugs will last forever. ☺




View attachment 4394





View attachment 4395





View attachment 4396

 

[Danny Ross]

Nice pictures. Mine never seem to come out that good. :-(

 

[BuckDoeHunter]

I am tempted to try that system in our Accura but there is no sealing surface on the snout of the plug like on the original. I wonder if there is much blow by getting into the threads?

 

[Busta]

So far in USA, one is free not to pursue a purchase one doesn't want.

Seems i misunderstood. You wrote Me, i was just pointing out, what you wished for is available............

Stainless steel is not brass or
aluminized bronze.

This is the type modules I was talking about.



I would like to see him offer this rear sealing QRBP breech plug, that GM posted; in the original post, but with the brass modules above in addition to the direct ignition below.


In this video of the Scout TD conversion, you have your choice. Brass modules, or direct ignition.



He could do the same thing in the back of that QRBP breech plug with the brass modules.

 

[GM54-120]

One of the things im curious about is the sealing surface also. The bigger one is if you only tighten the plug by hand but use a nut driver to install the module.....The whole thing might come out when you remove the fired module.

I was told a while back you cant use a DI system in alloy frame rifles. I was told break actions needed a steel frame and bolt actions needed lugs. The primer in a DI system gets the full peak pressure on ignition. Thats the entire point of DI....No flash hole, vent or bushing is used.

DI creates more peak pressure and more velocity. Scat traced BH209 loads with DI but we lost those traces when he left Hanks. IIRC it was around a 10% increase vs a 209.

 

[Busta]

It seems like not loading on a live primer is an excess of caution, especially since all the new break actions have a transfer bar that separates the hammer from the firing pin. Your primer is more likely to not fire than fire inadvertently.

Actually, H&R/NEF used the transfer bar, but they are no longer made. CVA and others use what is called a rebounding hammer, not a transfer bar. It serves the same purpose, where the trigger needs to be pulled for the hammer to contact the firing pin.

But you missed the point, it's still a live primer, and I wouldn't ever load on a live primer, no matter what. Even if the barrel wasn't on the receiver. Even though I know the chances of the primer firing are next to impossible. And I agree with you, it is excess caution, and a risk I'm not willing to take.

If you are target shooting at the range, it only takes the time to unscrew the dummy D.I. module before the first shot after loading, and screw in a live primer module. After the first shot, load on the fired module, unscrew the fired module, then screw in the live primer module. After the first shot, it doesn't take any longer to load, than it does for you to install a live primer module before loading each time. You are doing it after loading.

Safety First, Always!

 

[BuckDoeHunter]

I was told a while back you cant use a DI system in alloy frame rifles. I was told break actions needed a steel frame and bolt actions needed lugs. The primer in a DI system gets the full peak pressure on ignition. Thats the entire point of DI....No flash hole, vent or bushing is used.

DI creates more peak pressure and more velocity. Scat traced BH209 loads with DI but we lost those traces when he left Hanks. IIRC it was around a 10% increase vs a 209.

I completely forgot about that, good point.

 

[Busta]

One of the things im curious about is the sealing surface also. The bigger one is if you only tighten the plug by hand but use a nut driver to install the module.....The whole thing might come out when you remove the fired module.

I was told a while back you cant use a DI system in alloy frame rifles. I was told break actions needed a steel frame and bolt actions needed lugs. The primer in a DI system gets the full peak pressure on ignition. Thats the entire point of DI....No flash hole, vent or bushing is used.

DI creates more peak pressure and more velocity. Scat traced BH209 loads with DI but we lost those traces when he left Hanks. IIRC it was around a 10% increase vs a 209.

Do you or anyone else know what diameter and length the flame path is through the D.I. Module?

 

[GM54-120]

I know of 3 that were tested and im pretty sure Hanks are the .082s

.125 flame channel
.092 flame channel
.082 flame channel

They produced virtually identical fps with the powder used BUT the .125 made more peak pressure.

Quote from Scat.

An 8200 psi pressure spread from the HIS system to my DI with .125" flame channel modules is a LOT. With the DI system that is currently marketed having a .082" flame channel and falling half way between the HIS system and my DI with the .125" flame channel pressure wise, a lot of extra testing would be required to keep everyone safe as different powders react to DI and DI flame channel volumes much differently than any other ignition system to date. In pressure testing, there are a LOT of behind-the-scenes things that go on. Each gun calibration must be confirmed before recording traces. Things happen sometimes where a trace didn't record properly, etc. All of these things add together, along with the actual traces, to use a lot of projectiles, some of which are expensive. While some are donated and very much appreciated, the cost of pressure tracing is still expensive. Therefore, I plan to change my DI module flame channel to .093" (3/32") which is much closer to the size Jeff uses. This is the only way we can do this and keep confusion to a minimum, tracing costs down, and everyone safe. I plan to trace LRMP and DI on every load because the differences can be so great depending on powder used and weight of charge. We can no longer deduct or add pressure when comparing loads with other ignition systems. We have had good luck with QL estimating pressures but DI has made QL much less accurate in predicting chamber pressures. That said, I will make modules in a few days and pressure tracing will resume.

Quote from Richard

-Jerry was making his modules out of 3/4" screws (Hank's are 1/2") Jerry bore a .125" (1/8") hole thru from the primer pocket..........Hank's has an eighty thousandths (.080") hole.