Fury 300g Star Tip Mz 2

[ENCORE50A]

Tom I ask that you point out where i am Wrong in this thread? First off, Read the Thread Title, and the Author of it. My responses are to THIS Thread here at Hand, Which is Ron L’s, His Rifle, his 80 Grains of BH209, His Test Media, His Results etc. I am NOT the one that Brought in Someone elses Test, and their Test Media to Ron’s Thread. My Responses are Geared at RON L’s Test Results here in HIS Thread, It can’t get anymore “plain n simple” than that.

ENCORE50A Should have Started HIS OWN Thread on the Same Bullet with the Results from another Rifle, Someone elses 80 Grains of BH209 Powder, Their Test Media Etc. INSTEAD of Muddying up RON L’s Thread with it

SMH...……. Good grief, now starting in on Tom?

Read Ron's very first post and very first sentence.

I sent Ron 10 of the bullets to shoot and play with at long range. Not specifically to test, just to shoot them and see how they may work from his 45cal. He was shooting the regular star tip and getting excellent accuracy at 200yds after he went with a poly wad, so why not try the ST2 on the range.
This post wouldn't even be here had I not wanted to share bullets with Ron to just play with.

 

[MrTom]

You're wrong in arguing. Maybe he should have started another thread, but why become the antagonist? You're better than that Lewis. Its still an apple/orange discussion and nobody has merit in discussing it until everything is on an even keel.

And Encore...your comments with the inclusion of the smokeless users shot the whole thing in the foot because there's a whole world of difference from what Ron is doing regardless of what's being shot at-ballistic gel or water bottles.

Everyone should be able to voice an opinion as long as its on track with the threads intent. And both of you offer outstanding information. I hate seeing the two of you nose to nose over something that is so obviously lopsided when it comes to comparing the two tests. Both of you know the difference.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

Thx MrTom. I don't like when two people i respect argue. I won't pick a side and ain't eloquent enuff to talk someone off the ledge.
I respect Ron's holding firm on the way he tests.
I am not convinced yet on the the bullet either way. 2 shots isn't enough data for me to decide.

 

[Smyrnagc]

It's all in how you say it...Can easily get points across without being confrontational.

 

[ENCORE50A]

You're wrong in arguing. Maybe he should have started another thread, but why become the antagonist? You're better than that Lewis. Its still an apple/orange discussion and nobody has merit in discussing it until everything is on an even keel.

And Encore...your comments with the inclusion of the smokeless users shot the whole thing in the foot because there's a whole world of difference from what Ron is doing regardless of what's being shot at-ballistic gel or water bottles.

Everyone should be able to voice an opinion as long as its on track with the threads intent. And both of you offer outstanding information. I hate seeing the two of you nose to nose over something that is so obviously lopsided when it comes to comparing the two tests. Both of you know the difference.

IIRC there was no specific mention of testing a SML into either ballistics gel or water bottles. IIRC, without going back through every post, the inclusion of SML was about the results of the bullets with both smokers and a SML while hunting. It wasn't meant to be directed towards SML testing. It merely was part of an explanation of how the bullet functioned for both while hunting. The subject still remains, 45cal rifle, the 300gr ST2, 80grs of BH209 and bullet function. It should not have shot the whole post in the foot.

 

[ronlaughlin]

Quote from the OP

The bullet did damage to the first bottle, destroyed the second, third, and fourth bottle, holed the fifth, and sixth bottle.

Mostly, most bullets caught using this system severely damage the first two bottles, and just make holes in and out of the rest, until stopped. This bullet was different. As quoted, the second, third, and fourth bottles were destroyed. This is unusual. The only other bullet doing this sort of thing is the Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator.

The Lehigh XP is designed to inflict damage to deer without expanding. This Fury ST2 appeared to do the same type damage to the bottles as the XP. One may wonder if the Fury ST2, if it didn't expand, would do damage to deer?

Photo shows the bullets with the phone book dug out of nose. Weird how the bullet is bent. Interesting how the bullet is engraved by the rifling.

 

[BuckDoeHunter]

I wonder if it tumbled and pancaked into a jug or two and then the phone book.

It also looks like darker circles between the rifling marks towards the base. Makes me think this area reached the grooves in the barrel.

 

[jbaker]

I shot 5 deer with the fury star tipped. All 5 drt.

I have heard many people losing deer on the lehigh bullets.

 

[45-70]

I wonder if it tumbled and pancaked into a jug or two and then the phone book.

It also looks like darker circles between the rifling marks towards the base. Makes me think this area reached the grooves in the barrel.

It is suppose to

 

[45-70]

need to include the velocity, with that load, then it will explain reason it doesn't expand the bullet works at about 100 yds. That is the old star tip not with allum. tip.

 

[ronlaughlin]

I wonder if it tumbled and pancaked into a jug or two and then the phone book.

It also looks like darker circles between the rifling marks towards the base. Makes me think this area reached the grooves in the barrel.

Seems you are correct? Seems surprising there is this much expansion of the heel with only 80 grain powder. No good reason for me to continue shooting maximum powder loads.

Prior to shooting the bullet at the bottles, it was shot on paper to locate the aim. There was no indication of yaw. There were nice round holes in the paper.

 

[phenix78_99]

I shot 5 deer with the fury star tipped. All 5 drt.

I have heard many people losing deer on the lehigh bullets.

XP or CF?

 

[Sideshow]

I MAY be able to shed some light on bullet preformance . I hope it can bring some peace .

It is a tremendous challenge building a bullet that will preform under all sorts of various conditions . Most have very specific criteria for sucessful expected or hopefull results . Mz bullets operateing at varying distances have SEEMINGLY the same challenges to face as Some pistol bullets . Keep this in mind for a moment......

This velocity spread COMBINED with the Need for them to preform though various barriors is just about The HARDEST Assignment a ballistic engineer can be given . Very , Very Few will behave as wished in All Aspects a bullet encounters , especially bc . , correct expansion(not over or under) , hold together on impact , etc . Pistol bullets have traditionally had the Hardest Time preforming after their Hollow Points get Clogged on impact by cloth , wood ,drywall , etc . And yet They Have Been Designed to do Just THAT !!! NO EASY TASK !!!! Its taken DECADES to get them where they are Today . Untold Finaces too . The Best Minds in the Bussiness as well !!! And most still fail at pistol velocities because of clogged hollow points . At higher velocities youd never know that it flattened out beforehand here on plywood . There is a REASON , many reasons actually Hornadays ,for example , have flex tips and a leverguns magazine was a bonus . Nothing more .

As close as a pistol and mz bullet Paremeters LOOK , there are a few substantial differences .
Pistol bullets got tbe aerodynamics of a BARN . And they Need tbat to function at low speeds .
Stresses may be higher(certain factors) But velocity spread design is Much Smaller And Lower in peak . And thus Easier in Many ways .

A hunting RIFLE bullet doesnt have to nor should be Expected to handle all that . Velocity paramiters Without Clogging with unnatural debris isnt a design factor . Even a fluid or semi solid medium must have a certain viscosity or resistance to duplicate the animal flesh the projectile is designed for .

Even ballistic gelatins are NOT all the same density . Thats why . They are design purpose specific and a bunch of them too .

The super premium rifles bullets got the price tags to prove what went into them by industry giants who spent BIG MONEY to develop them .

This test cant truly determine a rifle hunting bullets true abilities . A pistol bullet has the definate upper hand with these current testing parameters here now in use .

I know this isnt what many want to hear . I have no axe to grind in this . This is about testing products to use in our rifles . No need for anyone to be upset or offended . Ive merely laid out before all Engineering Primciples ,a few , to shed a bit of insight into this in as simple of terms as i could think of . No more , no less . And thats fair .

 

[ronlaughlin]

This test cant truly determine a rifle hunting bullets true abilities

Here is a partial list of rifle bullets that function well in the set.

200 shockwave

225 Fury

250 TEZ

260 Dead Center

260 PT Gold

260 Extreme Elite

285 Ball Point

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[Sideshow]

Here is a partial list of rifle bullets that function well in the set.

200 shockwave

225 Fury

250 TEZ

260 Dead Center

260 PT Gold

260 Extreme Elite

285 Ball Point

.
.
.
.
.
.
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In all fairness Ron the next sentence applies too.....both above and below .
Win ,lose , whatever . It isnt the point . Peace is ....

 

[ronlaughlin]

Huh??

 

[snapbang]

Whoooo. Ron has consistently used water bottles/carpet/plywood of the same kind, similar powder charges, and distance to target to get results that can truly compare one bullet to another. When those results fit our expectations we were ok with it. Now we have a few favorites that don't perform per expected and we now have a problem with the test. That doesn't work. The result is what it is whether we like it or not.

Having said that for all you fellows who have good results with these bullets that is also what it is, good results. So don't let this test deter you from using what you know works for you. Frankly with bullets this size I dont see how any well hit animal can walk away. Expansion or no expansion. Maybe the shape of these bullets provides a more intensive hydraulic shock to the animals system. I don't know the answer but it works for you.

Since projectiles were invented the prediction of their performance has been difficult or elusive. Yeah, we know that some bullets kill better than others under certain conditions. But change the conditions and that may not necessarily be true anymore.

You all may get tired of hearing me use my inexpensive GT bullets. But I have to tell you that if an animal can take a well placed hit from a 300 grain bullet of any shape, construction,and any reasonable velocity, and walk away, Im lying to you if I tell you I made a good shot. Just cant happen. I'm pleased with the performance of the GT bullets in Ron's test but even if they would fail I was going to use them. You should do the same. If I can pay $.35 for my bullet and sabot instead of $1.00 to suit my needs then that's what I do.

Most of you may have greater requirements than what I have. If these bullets have done it for you in the past I predict they will in the future. Buy em 500 at a time and burn some powder. Enjoy.

 

[Mnt monkey]

As a young man for a while I got hung up on performance game bullets such as nosler partitions, Barnes solids etc, and a few others I think I tried all of them I have to admit I had a hard time finding accuracy in those bullets it was hard not that I didn't find some accuracy but it was hard,,I look back on all the years of hunting and seeing animals shot with a variety of those bullets and Friends using those also,,and I've seen those bullets that were supposed to be the greatest as far as destruction on an animal that you could load ,,fail many times, in my own experience if I experience bullet failure it was usually because of shot placement,,as those years passed I began to settle more on being confident of where my bullet goes bottom line the accuracy of that bullet,most of the animals I have harvested the last 10 or 15 years with centerfire rifles have been with Target hollow point bullets that a lot of people would never even consider shooting a game animal with,I personally have to believe in the accuracy of my bullet ,I consider that above any kind of bullet performance I don't see me leaving that camp the rest of my life,, if I can find that accuracy in a 25 cent bullet I'm going to buy if it's a dollar or $2 bullet I'm probably going to sacrifice and buy that too, snapbang I agree with you I think any animal that gets hit with that 300 but grain bullet is not going to like it whether it expanded or whether it blew up or whether it just slipped on through his ribcage, I sure believe int to harvest an animal as efficiently I can. Yes I need five hundred of those fury 250 star tips please

 

[Sideshow]

As a young man for a while I got hung up on performance game bullets such as nosler partitions, Barnes solids etc, and a few others I think I tried all of them I have to admit I had a hard time finding accuracy in those bullets it was hard not that I didn't find some accuracy but it was hard,,I look back on all the years of hunting and seeing animals shot with a variety of those bullets and Friends using those also,,and I've seen those bullets that were supposed to be the greatest as far as destruction on an animal that you could load ,,fail many times, in my own experience if I experience bullet failure it was usually because of shot placement,,as those years passed I began to settle more on being confident of where my bullet goes bottom line the accuracy of that bullet,most of the animals I have harvested the last 10 or 15 years with centerfire rifles have been with Target hollow point bullets that a lot of people would never even consider shooting a game animal with,I personally have to believe in the accuracy of my bullet ,I consider that above any kind of bullet performance I don't see me leaving that camp the rest of my life,, if I can find that accuracy in a 25 cent bullet I'm going to buy if it's a dollar or $2 bullet I'm probably going to sacrifice and buy that too, snapbang I agree with you I think any animal that gets hit with that 300 but grain bullet is not going to like it whether it expanded or whether it blew up or whether it just slipped on through his ribcage, I sure believe int to harvest an animal as efficiently I can. Yes I need five hundred of those fury 250 star tips please

Geneva convention or not the hp target bullet was THE projectile of choice in Nam for our snipers .

 

[Mnt monkey]

I'll continue to try every bullet that I can get my hands on always have I love new things if I can get a bullet that causes massive destruction to shoot the way I want it I'm going to love that ,,I shoot cuttingedge bullets in a couple of my cva's I've had great performance with them and they're in there under an inch in my rifles,,,,,