Is this the final word in muzzleloading propellants?

[alphaburnt]

Have you all noticed how different the velocities are that the different reviewers have found? I have looked at the BH209 brochure, HP muzzleloading , Big 6x6s review, Randy Wakemans review and made a comparison.

Knight/Barnes 250 with 100 gr volume equivalent
Big6x6=1783
Blackhorn209= 1924
HP Mz= 1991
R Wakeman=1841-1856

Knight/Barnes 290 with 100 gr volume equivalent
Big6x6= 1739
Blackhorn209= 1865
HP Mz= 1931
R Wakeman= 1722-1741

Knight/Barnes 250 with 120 gr volume equivalent
Big6x6= 1982
Blackhorn209= 2124
HP Mz= 2053

Knight/Barnes 290 with 120 gr volume equivalent
Big6x6= 1931
Blackhorn209= 2066
HP Mz= 1979

Im not sure why there is such a difference. It seems as if Chuck and Randys numbers are closer to being the same and the manufacturer and Tobys were considerably higher velocities. Would the manufacturer "cherry pick" by shooting it several times in differing temps and such to derive at a higher velocity and then use it as their data? I found no velocities from Randy with the 120 gr volume equivalent charges. I thought this was interesting to say the least.

 

[Busta]

Barrel lengths, temp, and humidity all play a role in velocity. Other factors that people forget are lot #'s of powder, and brands/types of primers. A hotter primer will usually increase velocities, sometimes considerably. Probably the biggest variance is powder measures, and the way people measure. Some measures can be 5-10 grains diferent at a 100 grain charge. Chuck mentioned he just filled and leveled...some overfill and tap several times to settle the powder...just too many different variables to make a conclusion.

Toby had this powder last fall before the hunting seasons, looks like Wakeman got his in December or thereabouts, Chuck maybe in January or February. They may have been making very small lots of the powder. It is an extruded powder and depending on how it is cut, could change it some. Weighing would probably be the best way to keep consistancy.

Toby listed 100 grains volume to weigh just a hair under 70 grains weight, I think Chucks weight was different. If you look at the picture of the buffalo on Toby's jug of Blackhorn and compare it to Wakemans, different lables, maybe different lots.

Lastly, we are basically dealing with smokeless powder that they made to smoke. Weight will be the safest and most accurate way to measure, unless they can extrude and cut the cylinders of powder to exactly the same length from one lot to another. They are selling it by ounces, not grains by volume. If they had it perfected before now, it would be in the stores already. Remember Toby has had some since last fall, I'm sure the numbers will be much closer as soon as they start making longer production runs.

 

[tengoose1]

Although I dont have a smoke-pole(im a nonsmoker) this blackhorn could open the market up for aftermarket breachplug manufacturing. If someone could make a breachplug for every model inline to make it blackhorn compatible hmm the possibilities. After this stuff gets out and more people make reports on it we will see if what I was told about what can be obtained in the savage is true. If it is I think you will see more people go to the savage even though they cant use smokeless legal in their state.

 

[acasto]

Saw this question asked somewhere around page 2, but did not see the answer.

Will BH 209 work in my prohunter?
If not, the tears will wash away the blood from my eyes after reading this post 3 times looking for that answer.

Thanks for the great report on the powder.


newbie

 

[sabotloader]

acasto

It should because I believe the Pro-Hunter has a close 209 ignition system...

 

[NimrodRx]

Although I dont have a smoke-pole(im a nonsmoker) this blackhorn could open the market up for aftermarket breachplug manufacturing. If someone could make a breachplug for every model inline to make it blackhorn compatible hmm the possibilities. After this stuff gets out and more people make reports on it we will see if what I was told about what can be obtained in the savage is true. If it is I think you will see more people go to the savage even though they cant use smokeless legal in their state.

Why???

If this stuff is the real deal, then there's less of a reason to go to the Savage. No longer need a smokeless MLer.

 

[tengoose1]

Possible 2200fps 300grainer, someone will test sooner or later. I have no dog in this fight.

 

[Grouse]

If this stuff is the real deal, then there's less of a reason to go to the Savage. No longer need a smokeless MLer.

The Savage with Smokeless powder is cheaper to shoot and higher velocities.

 

[Underclocked]

In answer to the topic question... I doubt it. :wink:

 

[vabowhntr]

There is an artice in the latest Shooting Illustrated on BH209. While it does not back up the extreme velocity of BH209, it does note the low standard deviations associated with it, especially with heavier, tighter fitting bullets. This consistency should result in a more accurate powder. I will give it a try when it hit shelves this year.\

Oh, and I won't havta clean it in the kitchen and get the wife mad!

 

[NimrodRx]

If this stuff is the real deal, then there's less of a reason to go to the Savage. No longer need a smokeless MLer.

The Savage with Smokeless powder is cheaper to shoot and higher velocities.

True. That's the only thing it's got going for it. The Savage is cheaper to shoot. This stuff is rediculously expensive when compared to smokeless.

As for higher velocities. Too soon to tell. I'm counting on pushing a saboted .40 180gr Barnes Expander at 2500 + fps with 150gr of BH209.

If Savage would build their rifle in a 45, shave off a few pounds, slap a couple more inches of bbl on it, remove the accutrigger, add locking lugs to the bolt, and bed their actions... Well, then it might just be the perfect muzzleloader.

 

[tengoose1]

I guess its what you want out of your gun. The more time you spend behind the trigger the better off your are. With the savage you could duplicate the same velocity as with blackhorn and be shooting way cheaper. Come hunting season use your blackhorn. I was thinking more along the lines as that you can get more velocity and still be safe with the savage, granted that if accuracy is there. FWIW I think that they used a savage smokeless ML barrel for their pressure testing. This stuff if it lives up to the hype is going to be great for those who use BP or subs. Someone just getting into muzzleloading might feel more justified getting a savage beings they will have a noncorrosive BP approved sub, and you never know their state might be the next to jump on the wagon. I might be wrong here but I think that their 10oz container has the same volume as a pound of blackpowder. Not being a bp guru I have no idea what that amounts to shot wise but going to guess 75 or so, if it sells for 35$ a jug with no cleaning everytime you shoot it sounds reasonable.

 

[frontier gander]

Blackhorn is legal in colorado for muzzy season. Smokeless is not. So how a bout a savage shooting blackhorn? :lol:

The powder is expensive but if you think it gives you an edge and you dont mind the price, go for it.

Shoot, i pay $25 for a pound of Pyrodex Select.

 

[txhunter58]

big6x6:

Did you shoot any conicals with it yet?

My new Knight KRB7 should be arriving next week. Would I be crazy to try some T/C maxiballs (370 gr) and Hornady Great plains (385 gr) with charges below 100 grains of Blackhorn?

 

[big6x6]

big6x6:

Did you shoot any conicals with it yet?

My new Knight KRB7 should be arriving next week. Would I be crazy to try some T/C maxiballs (370 gr) and Hornady Great plains (385 gr) with charges below 100 grains of Blackhorn?

Personally, I have never shot any conicals HOWEVER...I know for a fact that Western Powders HAS shot 300gr Harvester Sabertooths successfully...

 

[SwampFox]

If one only wants a Smokeless Muzzle Loader,then he are she should buy a 270,30-06 are any other host of centerfire rifles.I have no use for any Savage Muzzy my self.Over Price they are for what they are.Blackhorn 209 while high should not be out of reach for a Savage Muzzy owner.Infact ,if i was crazy enought to buy a Savage Muzzy,then i would look at Blackhorn 209 as a Blessing to the states that do not aloud Smokeless Powder doing there Muzzy only Season.And not *itch about it not alouding Smokeless in there Muzzy only season.

 

[NimrodRx]

Funny how a 7 page thread can get completely off track....

SwampFox, I'm not sure I even understand what you're saying. A .270 or .30-06 isn't exactly going to cut it for a "muzzleloader season."

rzd, I never said that the ML2 wasn't a fine ML. What I stated was what it would take for the ML2 to be the PERFECT MLer for ME.

Obviously my tastes are a little less than main stream. I can't even see myself using a 50 cal for deer sized game again. In fact, if I were building the "Perfect" MLer it wouldn't be a 45 either. It would be something that shoots a .358 saboted bullet.

"A stinking pile of horse ****" Indeed it is. I fully support the legalization of smokeless powder in MI and any other state for that matter. Unfortunately, HB 4554 faces an up hill battle at best. Our state's DNR and NRC aren't exactly what you would call progressive... Please do share this info. with Rep Calley. Perhaps this will be the final bit of info. that will get those on the committee to listen to reason.

In my mind, once you allow sabots, optics, "BP subs," in-lines, smokeless.... You've progressed to the point of "modern" muzzleloading. The question then becomes, what was the intent of the season. We're probably going through some of the same growing pains that archery did when the first wheelie bow came to market.

IMHO, this powder will do one of three things.

1. Have little to no effect bc your average MLer hunter is VERY ill informed, picks up his rifle two to three times a year and really isn't interested in pushing the envelope.

2. Will show just how foolish a ban on smokeless MLing really is by completely erasing any distinction (other than the fact that it makes smoke) between BP subs and smokeless. Thus resulting in the legalization of smokeless.

3. This loss of distinction between smokeless and BP subs will create such a backlash that we will all find ourselves shooting BP out of our sidelocks again.

Only time will tell. In the mean time, I am going to take advantage of every bit of technology I can to effectively, efficietly, and legaly harvest WTs in MI. And furthermore would encourage anyone else to do so with the best available product on the market. Today, that happens to be BH209.

Do I like it? Hell no. I'd much rather be shooting smokeless. Unfortunately, to do so (with my preferences) that would cost me a $1000 rifle and not using my rifle during MLer season.

The trade off, I have to pay $30 for a "volumetric pound" of powder compared to the $16 that a pound of smokeless would cost me.

With current regs., that's $14 well spent.

 

[NimrodRx]

Correction. $20 for a pound of smokeless.

$10 well spent.

 

[txhunter58]

In the reading I have done on the ignition of Blackhorn, I read an article by Toby Bridges that said he had some problems with ignition with a knight dome faced breech plug. This is the type of plug that my KRB came with.

However, he was talking about this plug in a knight revolution that had a plastic primer pocket. The ignition problem was not seen until he tried to shoot it when the temp dropped to 20 degrees.

Will I not have the same problem with my KRB at low temps because it is sealed better and doesn't use the plastic jacket, or should I be concerned? Or would it be better to replace the breech plug with the older version (concave and lager hole)?

Here is the article: http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/Technical5.html

 

[big6x6]

Will I not have the same problem with my KRB at low temps because it is sealed better and doesn't use the plastic jacket, or should I be concerned? Or would it be better to replace the breech plug with the older version (concave and lager hole)?

The KRB is the rifle I first tested Blackhorn 209... Look at the topic "Is this the last word in muzzleloading propellants?"

I doubt you will have any problems with the KRB and Blackhorn 209. I doubt, at least for the time being, that there is any other breechplug available for the KRB except the one that came with it.

IF you have any problem with ignition, try used a hotter primer such as a Federal 209A(didn't help in cases I have seen) OR a tigher fitting bullet/sabot(such as a 300gr SST/MMP-HPH12..DID help in cases I have seen.)