Lead bullets in a sml

[brownisdown]

I have 2 sml muzzleloaders.One is a Knight mountaineer in 45 cal and the other is a newly required Omega with Woodman arms 45 cal sml barrel.I have been shooting hornaday 200 grain sst in hlbs with 55-60 grains of h4198.I see where lead bullets open up more and a better wound with what I shoot.Would a lead bullet in a sabot at the same weight as the sst's hold up to the speed of smokeless powder.I see they are cheaper to shoot.My yardage is from 15 yds to possibly 200 yards across a cut corn field.And I can not afford the bh 209 powder.

 

[brownisdown]

Alright guys,don't tell me my question stumped every one or that no one has done it.I figured I would get all kinds of input on this.Foolish me!

 

[MrTom]

The lead bullets in a sabot would likely "hold up" to speed as long as the sabot held together. Whether the lead bullets would hold together on deer/elk sized game animals is another thing. I hope that my smokeless speeds will deliver good groups at 100 yards at between 2400 and 2600 FPS and I have zero intentions of finding out how a plain lead bullets works on deer. I'll stick with solid copper or a jacketed bullet. Not plated, but jacketed.

 

[smokepolehall]

I have not tried any lead bullets in the sabots to see how they perform

 

[Shorty]

I think i recall some made like that years ago called cheap shots, came with sabots too. They shot good out of my knight then. You could always up the tin in them. I think making them a little harder if needed imo…

 

[michiganmuzzy]

Ive shot some 20:1 lead in a 45/70conversion. Light loads just for sighting, plinking, getting to know the gun. If i used them on game i would make them harder, like #2 alloy, to match something like the .458win mag 292gr load listed in the Lyman Cast Bullet Book. In a sabot tho, idk.

 

[xdmalder]

When you push lead bullets past 2500 fps almost all alloys won't survive an impact with adequate, repeatable penetration. The only alloy that will work is a babbitt alloy. And that's a whole new ballgame in learning to cast with that one

 

[LBAhunter]

I have thought about it. I was looking at Montana Bullet Works 10MM 200gr WFN and GT bullets 10MM 220gr hp.

 

[eekjellander]

The lead bullets in a sabot would likely "hold up" to speed as long as the sabot held together. Whether the lead bullets would hold together on deer/elk sized game animals is another thing. I hope that my smokeless speeds will deliver good groups at 100 yards at between 2400 and 2600 FPS and I have zero intentions of finding out how a plain lead bullets works on deer. I'll stick with solid copper or a jacketed bullet. Not plated, but jacketed.

Lead is proven to be the most deadly mushroom in the woods , and has been a reliable meat maker for centuries .And if you need to push faster gas check it or do like me powder coat either way I make them better every time I make them (another sport) some never get to know . Mostly cause money is easier than casting and less time consuming , I haven't shot edible meat with a store bought bullet since i was 18 yrs old 73 now . That time issue ,back then (chasing girls) ended once I caught one I spend my time casting /shooting/ and eating what I shot right up to the hole most times , if you make the BHN right for the yardage and the critter lead does the job just fine/Ed

 

[michiganmuzzy]

Lead is proven to be the most deadly mushroom in the woods , and has been a reliable meat maker for centuries .And if you need to push faster gas check it or do like me powder coat either way I make them better every time I make them (another sport) some never get to know . Mostly cause money is easier than casting and less time consuming , I haven't shot edible meat with a store bought bullet since i was 18 yrs old 73 now . That time issue ,back then (chasing girls) ended once I caught one I spend my time casting /shooting/ and eating what I shot right up to the hole most times , if you make the BHN right for the yardage and the critter lead does the job just fine/Ed

Ive got everything to powder-coat some bullets, but still haven't gotten around to doing it yet.

 

[eekjellander]

When you push lead bullets past 2500 fps almost all alloys won't survive an impact with adequate, repeatable penetration. The only alloy that will work is a babbitt alloy. And that's a whole new ballgame in learning to cast with that one

Don't cast much do ya , and explain why past 2500 fps unless yer makin burger . My lead goes in and out just fine, if the BHN being used for the yardage is correct penetration is a no brainer ,where as using pistol bullets and speed/sabots are not always the the dump em right there . Often times meat damaged (grenade effect) is more likely with a poorly placed shot and 1/2 the deer is wasted ,where as a proper lead conical leaves no doubt @1500fps about penetration's effect and a blood trail Ray Charles could've followed and he was blind and dead ! /Ed

 

[brownisdown]

Mr.Tom,what if a person put a wad under the sabot and kept the speed lower than what I stated.I now have a speed at 2550 with a 200 grain sst bullet.I know a little too fast for lead.

 

[eekjellander]

Ive got everything to powder-coat some bullets, but still haven't gotten around to doing it yet.

Did you tell your wife about a thief stole your toaster oven (you had nothing to do with it) and pay no attention to that funny smell coming out of the basement ?

 

[brownisdown]

I know speed isn't a friend to lead bullets. I could drop my powder down to lower the speed.Just wanted something that opened up better than sst bullets,but I have always saw my deer drop or have found it in a short distance.

 

[LBAhunter]

https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/10mm-lbt-200gr-wfn-pb/These are the ones, I was looking at.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

Did you tell your wife about a thief stole your toaster oven (you had nothing to do with it) and pay no attention to that funny smell coming out of the basement ?

I actually bought a dedicated toaster oven, biggest one Malwart had. And only do it in the garage. So far only done car and motorcycle parts.

I know speed isn't a friend to lead bullets. I could drop my powder down to lower the speed.Just wanted something that opened up better than sst bullets,but I have always saw my deer drop or have found it in a short distance.

speed up to 2100-2200 fps and a harder lead ought have no problem knocking down deer, elk, whatever. The load im looking at has a powder listed nearly identical to what youre already using.

2200-2300 seems about the speed limit Lyman likes for lead. #2 lead alloy.

 

[xdmalder]

Don't cast much do ya , and explain why past 2500 fps unless yer makin burger . My lead goes in and out just fine, if the BHN being used for the yardage is correct penetration is a no brainer ,where as using pistol bullets and speed/sabots are not always the the dump em right there . Often times meat damaged (grenade effect) is more likely with a poorly placed shot and 1/2 the deer is wasted ,where as a proper lead conical leaves no doubt @1500fps about penetration's effect and a blood trail Ray Charles could've followed and he was blind and dead ! /Ed

Don't have much for manners do ya? Since you assume I don't know much about casting, I'll assume I've forgotten more about casting than you know about casting

 

[LBAhunter]

https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/10mm-lbt-200gr-wfn-pb/These are the ones, I was looking at.

I bet would do some serious damage at 2500 fps.... would be quite a thump!! Would definitely plow all the way through bones and all....

 

[anonymouscowherd]

The biggest issue with lead is speed - drive it fast enough and it smears or gets enough friction to start softening more or whatever, causing accuracy issues and being a PITA to clean. Using the sabot alleviates that. I don't think you need to worry about it spinning itself apart (as some really light 45gr bullets at 4000fps can do from a 220 swift and similar with a faster twist rate, they never make it to the 100 yard line...) since it is one hunk of lead, especially if you are using a "hard cast" alloy instead of pure lead.

As far as accuracy, etc goes - the only way to find out is to get some range time in and try it. I know my .54 percussion didn't shoot 230gr .451 pistol bullets in sabots very well across several different powder charges, even though the weight of the bullet is really close to a .54 (well .530 ...) round ball in weight (224gr IIRC) and I'm not in the mood/position to spend a chunk of my minimal fun money allowance on finding out, especially since .54 maxis shoot as well as I can manage with the irons on the gun....

For terminal ballistics on an animal though I'd want to either stay with a proven performer solid, monolithic, or just high quality jacketed bullet. Or use a full bore diameter heavy bullet and reduce velocities.

 

[anonymouscowherd]

Oh, and if you do decide to go with a hard cast heavy-for-caliber pistol style bullet - and remember, I am encouraging the experimentation at least on paper targets - I'd look at whatever buffalo bore and similar companies offer in .400 that is very hard cast and 200gr+. And the best way to get more "thwack-hammer" effect is to go with a slightly larger metplat for the bullet design if you are gonna be getting a mold and casting yourself.

I'm also wondering why there aren't other smaller caliber sabots available - there are plenty of .375 rifle bullets available that would serve very well at the velocities you are mentioning... (of course, slightly lighter so they'd go a bit faster....) but I guess that is for a different thread