Lyman is out of the Muzzleloading Firearms Business.

[Smyrnagc]

Billy Preston had a great song in 1972 called "Will It Go Round In Circles."

Now...Back to Lyman Going Out of Business. Or maybe this thread has run it's course.

 

[11th Corps]

Too bad about Lyman. They made good entry sidelocks-or sold them at least. With the death of T/C sidelocks two good first time rifle purchases are no longer available.


I purchased my first inline this year. I've been a caplock and flintlock shooter-both rifle and pistol-for many years.
I'm not a hunter.
So why buy an inline?
Just for the experience. So far it's been a learning curve. I mounted a scope but was not satisfied with the accuracy results, so I'm in the process of checking several scopes I had in the closet and mounting them to the CVA.
I may go back to the open fiber optic sights the rifle came with.
If shooting isn't a challenge, I'm not interested. Fortunately for me, shooting both smokeless and smoke poles fills the challenge need for me.

 

[bronko220002]

Ahhh you're just peeing in the wind old fellow. One could say if you want to go "primitive " you must use a matchbox or wheellock ignition.
It is FLINTLOCK season. That's what we here in PA call it. Not primitive season. We use flintlock ignition rifles. Sone shoot PRBs others sabots. I personally shoot a custom .58 cal with a .575" PRB and 100 gr of FFg black powder.

 

[bronko220002]

Billy Preston had a great song in 1972 called "Will It Go Round In Circles."

Now...Back to Lyman Going Out of Business. Or maybe this thread has run it's course.

I remember that song! Gonna fly high like a bird up in the sky!
I like the feel of the Lyman sidelocks but sadly the 2 I had alwas gave me fits with ignition problems. Not so with my TCs

 

[drpatton]

Ahhh you're just peeing in the wind old fellow. One could say if you want to go "primitive " you must use a matchbox or wheellock ignition.
It is FLINTLOCK season. That's what we here in PA call it. Not primitive season. We use flintlock ignition rifles. Sone shoot PRBs others sabots. I personally shoot a custom .58 cal with a .575" PRB and 100 gr of FFg black powder.

I'm not anal about labels. I am about intention. A label doesn't mean that much. A Tank can be called an Armored Vehicle, but it's still a Tank.
If its Flintlock and open sights, it should remain that way. Also, as I've shown, I'm not the only one calling it primitive. It is label the state uses if you talk to them on the phone, which is what I did earlier today.

I'm really surprised at how many are hung up on a label and not caring what the intention is. In other words, PA describes Primitive but doesn't use it as a label, so to some, that means it doesn't exist and that is ludicrous. That's like saying the sky doesn't exist because to people are arguing over the difference in the color of it. Labels are just tags stuck on something. It's what the "something" is that counts.

 

[One eye]

I guess i should sell all 20something muzzleloaders since i dont need them anymore. I guess i was wrong thinking that i enjoy the hell out of it.

I understand your pain and would gladly rehome all 20 until you’re feeling better……..

 

[451whitworth]

Thus, the real question is less about inline vs sidelock and more about optics vs. iron sights.

Exactly. Take away the optic from the most advanced modern muzzleloader and it becomes a 100-150 yard weapon for 90% + of shooters and some even less.

 

[WP79Vet]

Sidelocks seem to have become a largely-abandoned niche market within the muzzleloading world. I see it as an opportunity for small US startups: The big companies don't see enough sales opportunities to bother with it, so a new company will have some breathing room in which to get established. Furthermore, sidelocks seem to have a dedicated following, so there is already a market - albeit a small one. Wish I was 20 years younger.... !

 

[451whitworth]

WP79Vet,
Muzzle-Loaders.com has the Investarms line up starting at $479 up to $650. There is no way for a USA company to compete with that.

 

[WP79Vet]

WP79Vet,
Muzzle-Loaders.com has the Investarms line up starting at $479 up to $650. There is no way for a USA company to compete with that.

When I look at the ML.com site nearly all of the Traditions and many of the Investarms models are not actually available. Furthermore, Italy and Spain have no real production advantages (which usually boil down to wage rates) over the US, and they have many disadvantages when it comes to competing in the US markets.

The Henry company has resoundingly proven that an efficient small company offering high quality US-made products and GREAT customer service CAN compete very well, even in the world of lever action centerfires where there is LOTS of US and foreign competition.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

I understand your pain and would gladly rehome all 20 until you’re feeling better……..

Thanks for looking out for me.

 

[drpatton]

Exactly. Take away the optic from the most advanced modern muzzleloader and it becomes a 100-150 yard weapon for 90% + of shooters and some even less.

To me, that is not what this is about. States have muzzleloader seasons. Whatever the state decides is legal is fine. Scopes, in-lines, whatever...
Then there are states which have a "primitive"season or they define it as so.

That is where the scopes, in-lines and such disappear. The problem is the encroachment onto a season which was by design to be without these things.

 

[bronko220002]

I'm not anal about labels. I am about intention. A label doesn't mean that much. A Tank can be called an Armored Vehicle, but it's still a Tank.
If its Flintlock and open sights, it should remain that way. Also, as I've shown, I'm not the only one calling it primitive. It is label the state uses if you talk to them on the phone, which is what I did earlier today.

I'm really surprised at how many are hung up on a label and not caring what the intention is. In other words, PA describes Primitive but doesn't use it as a label, so to some, that means it doesn't exist and that is ludicrous. That's like saying the sky doesn't exist because to people are arguing over the difference in the color of it. Labels are just tags stuck on something. It's what the "something" is that counts.

Very well. Call it a primitive season if you like. It still requires that you use a flintlock ignition and open sights, or aperture sights. I believe you're just ticked because they allow the use of projectiles other than patched round balls. The PRB is an effective projectile but there are many others out there that are more effective and provide a quick an humane kill to the animal. And IMO that is more important than being "traditional". Heck you could call miniballs traditional too as they've been around since the mid 1860s.

 

[drpatton]

The Henry company has resoundingly proven that an efficient small company offering high quality US-made products and GREAT customer service CAN compete very well, even in the world of lever action centerfires where there is LOTS of US and foreign competition

I do not believe if T/C was in production in the U.S., making sidelocks as it used to, it would fair well in this market.

Most buyers no longer want these types of rifles. That's why S&W took T/C into a different direction into making ONLY in-lines.

I believe if Thompson Center arose from the dead and started making quality Renegades and Hawkens, the price for them would be about $1,400 to $2,200. This would be due to a limited demand for those rifles. Look at Pedersoli and what they charge for their rifles. For a quality product with a limited demand, the price will be very high. No matter where they are made.

 

[drpatton]

I believe you're just ticked because they allow the use of projectiles other than patched round balls.

Partly correct. I don't care is Sates have muzzleloader seasons where that state allows anything which is loaded from the muzzle to be used. That was never the issue.

My problem is where the season is designed to be primitive; Flintlock, open sights, PRB or conicals, Black Powder or substitute, and then people want to take that away because they feel they should be allowed to shoot sabots, or use in-lines, or smokeless. That is no different than me trying to force you to use a primitive muzzleloader in an area which allows in-lines. Does this make sense?

 

[1874sharpsshooter]

I hereby officially declare Pedersoli the supreme ruler of the traditional muzzleloader world .

 

[drpatton]

I hereby officially declare Pedersoli the supreme ruler of the traditional muzzleloader world .

Unfortunately, they have become the ruler of the quality made rifles, due to little competition and a limited market.

 

[bronko220002]

Partly correct. I don't care is Sates have muzzleloader seasons where that state allows anything which is loaded from the muzzle to be used. That was never the issue.

My problem is where the season is designed to be primitive; Flintlock, open sights, PRB or conicals, Black Powder or substitute, and then people want to take that away because they feel they should be allowed to shoot sabots, or use in-lines, or smokeless. That is no different than me trying to force you to use a primitive muzzleloader in an area which allows in-lines. Does this make sense?

Ahh yes finally some common ground. I love the flintlock season. I rarely see anyone else in the woods. I also agree with the open sight regulation. I also am in agreement with the use of any projectile. I do not think that the projectile should be limited to a PRB. When I hunt the flintlock season I use a .58 cal 1:60 twist and use a big old PRB. But that's what I use. If someone desires to use a saboted bullet I have no qualms about it.

 

[WP79Vet]

I do not believe if T/C was in production in the U.S., making sidelocks as it used to, it would fair well in this market.

Most buyers no longer want these types of rifles. That's why S&W took T/C into a different direction into making ONLY in-lines.

I believe if Thompson Center arose from the dead and started making quality Renegades and Hawkens, the price for them would be about $1,400 to $2,200. This would be due to a limited demand for those rifles. Look at Pedersoli and what they charge for their rifles. For a quality product with a limited demand, the price will be very high. No matter where they are made.

I don't have any expertise or experience in production engineering... But Henry makes superb big-bore lever rifles with nicely inletted and finished walnut stocks in Rice Lake Wisconsin and sells them for $850. A good lever rifle is a lot more complicated than a sidelock ML, so I'm guessing that a well-managed, efficient small company that was smart enough to locate in a small American town with low cost of living and a culture with good work ethics, like Rice Lake (I grew up 50 miles south of Rice Lake, my Dad's closest relatives lived there, and I skied for about 40 days a year at the Rice Lake ski hill), could easily hit that price point for a quality Renegade or a Hawken.

When Henry started making lever actions, demand for them was at an all-time low. Now, they are among the hardest rifles to find, despite being about twice as expensive as an average bolt gun - because everybody wants one. The gun shops here in Montana tell me they get several calls a day for .45-70 ammo, but they just can't get it, and every big-bore lever rifle they get their hands on sells in a few hours - and that's Montana, where there is quite a bit of wide-open hunting country. I believe that the same could happen with side-locks if quality, good-looking, well-made American sidelocks were available. Just as the only place a bolt action has any real practical advantages over a lever is in Western hunting in wide-open country (even in the western half of Montana, though, MOST of our hunting is in dark timber where a 100 yard shot is a long one), an inline doesn't have many practical advantages over a sidelock for most hunting, and I think that MANY people would be proud to carry a great-looking, high-quality sidelock if they could get it for $850. Yep, there will always be people who get a thrill out of trying to turn MLs into 500 yard hunting weapons, and are therefore into the latest technology, just like with center-fires, but I think those folks are the minority.

 

[451whitworth]

I do not believe if T/C was in production in the U.S., making sidelocks as it used to, it would fair well in this market.

Most buyers no longer want these types of rifles. That's why S&W took T/C into a different direction into making ONLY in-lines.

I believe if Thompson Center arose from the dead and started making quality Renegades and Hawkens, the price for them would be about $1,400 to $2,200. This would be due to a limited demand for those rifles. Look at Pedersoli and what they charge for their rifles. For a quality product with a limited demand, the price will be very high. No matter where they are made.

Agreed. If anyone remembers the T/C Hawken was $995 when they dropped it back in 2012.