Lyman is out of the Muzzleloading Firearms Business.

[Snake Pleskin]

There is nothing wrong with being a traditionalist. That is your prerogative. But IMO a sabot is nothing more than a different type of patch that will hold a better designed bullet. You can have a cotton patch, a paper patch or a plastic patch. What is the difference? They each serve the same purpose - to engage the rifling and guide and impart spin on the bullet then drop off when it leaves the muzzle. Most people today use a sabot and use modern bullets with them for more humane kills. I personally like to use paper patched bullets in a couple of my sidelocks. And paper patched bullets have been around for a loooong time.

paper patched is not a plastic sabot, IMHO

 

[Snake Pleskin]

I think you are making some assumptions as far as the intent of ML season. If there were no inlines at the time then the regs had to be changed to suit the needs of the growing number of people that wanted to hunt with, at the time, inlines instead of traditional MLs. If there were more traditionalists then inliners, the seasons probably would look different. The rules and regs get made by the majority not the minority. As MLers we are the minority so our seasons get the first cuts. Also it seems like you have a dedicated traditional ML season and want to take away the open ML season? The deer and woods are a resource (renewable but limited) and there are many groups that want access to the woods or deer or whatever, but theres only so much to go around so you and i as MLers have to share our small share of that resource. As hunting(with any firearm) falls out of favor our share will get smaller so we are stuck with having to hunt together, like it or not, until we arent allowed to hunt anywhere except private property. Then you will be able to rule put inlines altogether.

I just feel that Inlines are not really about ML. They are just a means to use a "modern" firearm in another season. IMHO, I hope your scenario does not happen too soon, but I have to agree hunting in general is waning as are the shooting sports across the board. It is what it is.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

I just feel that Inlines are not really about ML. They are just a means to use a "modern" firearm in another season. IMHO, I hope your scenario does not happen too soon, but I have to agree hunting in general is waning as are the shooting sports across the board. It is what it is.

As someone who owns and shoots both inlines and sidelocks i have to disagree with you. Bowhunters have to share archery season with crossbow hunters. Someday we may hunt with lazers or rail guns, who knows. Inlines are ABSOLUTELY about MLing for me and many, many others. I feel like traditional shooters often have issue with inliners when they need to accept that we are all together and on the same side. With the growing popularity of hi powered airguns we may be sharing a season with them too. As Encore50 said, Michigan has already done away with its dedicated ML season. Now we can use any legal firearm in the specific region to hunt with during the previous ML season, at least down south here.

 

[drpatton]

The argument sits on the definition of "Primitive." Are bows and muzzleloaders, inherently primitive? They must not be, due to the fact there are muzzleloader seasons and there are Primitive Muzzleloader seasons.

There is an archery or bow season, but not a primitive bow season. That doesn't mean bows are inherently primitive. One could argue a standard recurve bow would be primitive versus a compound bow. The projectiles (arrows and arrowheads) would or should be primitive as well, to stay inline with the theme.

The same is true with muzzleloaders. There is a muzzleloader season and in some states, a primitive muzzleloader season. The primitive firearm, in most states with one, is a flintlock, with open sights. The projectiles in the primitive season, should be lead only, patched round balls or bullets.

That seems simple, but obviously it isn't.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

The argument sits on the definition of "Primitive." Are bows and muzzleloaders, inherently primitive? They must not be, due to the fact there are muzzleloader seasons and there are Primitive Muzzleloader seasons.

There is an archery or bow season, but not a primitive bow season. That doesn't mean bows are inherently primitive. One could argue a standard recurve bow would be primitive versus a compound bow. The projectiles (arrows and arrowheads) would or should be primitive as well, to stay inline with the theme.

The same is true with muzzleloaders. There is a muzzleloader season and in some states, a primitive muzzleloader season. The primitive firearm, in most states with one, is a flintlock, with open sights. The projectiles in the primitive season, should be lead only, patched round balls or bullets.

That seems simple, but obviously it isn't.

Is there a round ball alternative to lead? Thats a problem in some places. The politicians have to answer to all their constituents and don't care about the minor details like primitive, wooden arrows, round balls, recurve… just appease enough voters to get re-elected.

 

[Heat]

You could probably use bismuth or tungsten like the waterfowlers but it is probably $$$ compared to lead.

 

[bronko220002]

I understand the argument for sabots and against them. What I don't understand is their interpretation of Primitive. Sabots are not primative.

Again you are using words that are meant to enforce your opinion. If you look at the PGC Hunting Digest under deer seasons there is zero reference to "primitive" season. The season after Christmas is called flintlock season.

 

[drpatton]

Is there a round ball alternative to lead?

What would you use in a Sabot? Lead or copper jacketed lead. Sometimes the base is open to expose the lead.

 

[drpatton]

Again you are using words that are meant to enforce your opinion. If you look at the PGC Hunting Digest under deer seasons there is zero reference to "primitive" season. The season after Christmas is called flintlock season.

Ahh No. I'm defining a term. Primitive Season is defined by the States. I'm not defining law. The state has already done that. PA has one. It wasn't my idea. Just because it isn't in the Hunting Digest, doean't mean it doesn't exist.

From PA Code law:
(b) Flintlock muzzleloading deer season.

(1) Permitted devices. It is lawful to hunt deer during the flintlock muzzleloading deer season with a flintlock muzzleloading firearm. The firearm must be an original or similar reproduction of muzzleloading firearm manufactured prior to 1800. The firearm’s ignition mechanism must consist of a hammer containing a naturally occurring stone that is spring propelled onto an iron or steel frizzen which, in turn, creates sparks to ignite a priming powder. The firearm must have open or aperture sights and be a .44 caliber or larger single-barrel long gun or a .50 caliber or larger single-barrel handgun that propels single-projectile ammunition.

 

[phalanx]

In the area of Virginia I hunt, during the general firearms season one can only use a shotgun. So any other firearm is illegal, to include a muzzleloader. I think it's starting to change, little by little and county by county. Without the two week muzzleloader season which overlaps the archery season I'd not be able to use any muzzleloader, traditional or modern. That would suck. Just keep in mind not every state is, or can be the same about hunting laws due to terrain, population, etc. Where I hunt its dog running country due to swamps and tradition so I think the thought was to limit bullet travel by using shotguns only and no slugs. The western part of the state is different and has different laws and regulations. I am just glad to have a muzzleloader season and sometimes i use modern and other times my sidelocks, it ls all fun and I am sorry to hear Lyman is leaving the business.

 

[drpatton]

general firearms season one can only use a shotgun. So any other firearm is illegal, to include a muzzleloader

Some counties have been Shotgun slug only. Montgomery County in MD was one. I sued to live and hunt there. They started allowing Muzzleloaders before I left. I do not know if they still do. In-lines nullify the idea that Muzzleloaders are like shooting shotgun slugs. So, I don't know.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

What would you use in a Sabot? Lead or copper jacketed lead. Sometimes the base is open to expose the lead.

Im wondering about the use of round balls in a traditional ML. Ive never seen any other than lead. If you were in CA, what option do you have, for a lead round ball, in a 1:70” flintlock? You cant use lead there so what are the options? Would you want to put steel or tungsten down the barrel? No way. Aluminum or copper maybe. How will they perform as RBs tho?

 

[drpatton]

Im wondering about the use of round balls in a traditional ML. Ive never seen any other than lead. If you were in CA, what option do you have, for a lead round ball, in a 1:70” flintlock? You cant use lead there so what are the options? Would you want to put steel or tungsten down the barrel? No way. Aluminum or copper maybe. How will they perform as RBs tho?

I know there are jacketed BBs, so round balls are not too far fetched.

 

[bronko220002]

Ahh No. I'm defining a term. Primitive Season is defined by the States. I'm not defining law. The state has already done that. PA has one. It wasn't my idea. Just because it isn't in the Hunting Digest, doean't mean it doesn't exist.

From PA Code law:
(b) Flintlock muzzleloading deer season.

(1) Permitted devices. It is lawful to hunt deer during the flintlock muzzleloading deer season with a flintlock muzzleloading firearm. The firearm must be an original or similar reproduction of muzzleloading firearm manufactured prior to 1800. The firearm’s ignition mechanism must consist of a hammer containing a naturally occurring stone that is spring propelled onto an iron or steel frizzen which, in turn, creates sparks to ignite a priming powder. The firearm must have open or aperture sights and be a .44 caliber or larger single-barrel long gun or a .50 caliber or larger single-barrel handgun that propels single-projectile ammunition.

So I say again, where in your recent post does the word primitive show up?

 

[1874sharpsshooter]

I guess I will always hang in to at least 1 of my GPR 's then. First muzzy I ever got back in 1978 I think it was .

Makes you wonder what happened since Lyman not to long ago had Pedersoli make their guns as the Signature series.

 

[1874sharpsshooter]

And as far as the same ol same ol primitive attitude anti inline type of thinking .. well to each his own but if you think it should be primitive weapons only why stop at flintlocks. Outlaw them also and get yourself a spear or club and go REAL primitive.

 

[1874sharpsshooter]

And as far as the same ol same ol primitive attitude anti inline type of thinking .. well to each his own but if you think it should be primitive weapons only why stop at flintlocks. Outlaw them also and get yourself a spear or club and go REAL primitive.

And for the record I have a lot of sidelocks I have used for over 45 years . But still use inlines also. Both have their place ... except in the minds of the opinionated " purist"

 

[BlackPowderGuy (AJHS)]

Lyman was not making its own guns for years anyway, they were made by Investarms...and Investarms is still making sidelocks- muzzle-loaders.com carries them. I got one of the last new Deerslayer's about six weeks ago...a place in the pacific northwest got two from their final order from Lyman, and since I had inquired about a year ago, they reached out to me and gave me a chance to buy.

Regarding the macro-debate about ML seasons etc... when it comes down to it, what makes an ML an ML TO ME (in addition to the literal manner of loading powder and projectile) is the chance that it won't go boom when you pull the trigger. That risk doesn't exist really with modern firerarms. I'll bet nearly everyone on this forum who hunts with an ML has had the experience of it going click no boom at the critical moment. I've actually had that with my inline and not with my sidelock! That moment, combined with the smoke that lingers for the extra seconds so you don't know whether you've succeded of wiffed, THAT is the uniqueness of muzzleloading and you have it whether inline or sidelock.

Thus, the real question is less about inline vs sidelock and more about optics vs. iron sights. In Maryland, we have both an ML season, in which you can use an inline with an optic and a traditional season in which it must be a sidelock and no optics. - In my inlines I used saboted ammo and in my traditional, a conical- but the real difference is that with my inline I am comfortable taking a shot out to 150 yards and with my sidelock I probably don't have enough confidence in my shooting to go past 50 and would prefer inside of 40 because of the lack of a scope. Now I don't claim to be a great shooter, and I know that there are people with iron sights who can shoot a dime at 100 yards, but I doubt that is most of us. We can argue about whether sabots are just another kind of patch {IMO, no...they form too perfect a seal compared to a patch) or whether anything other than PRB is "too modern", but what we can all probably agree on is that traditional hunting did not involve scopes that allow you to see the fuzz on a peach at 200 yards! It is the optic that increases the functionality of the weapon and which allows more deer to be harvested because you can set up further away, spook fewer deer etc.

With my sidelock, my range over what I am comfortable with my crossbow is only 15-20 yards more max...that fact saves a lot of deer who would die if I used a scope...

 

[Olde NE Hunter]

Just to throw a rock into the mix...
I think I know of at least one state that defines a legal firearm for their Primitive Season as any straight wall cartridge single shot rifle. All muzzle loaders are okay and .45/70 and .35 Whelen are a couple of legal loads.

 

[drpatton]

So I say again, where in your recent post does the word primitive show upWell, lets

So I say again, where in your recent post does the word primitive show up?

Pennsylvania doesn't use the term primitive. They describe it. Earlier in this thread, you would have noticed where I posted the PA Game Laws concerning Muzzleloaders. I also linked their web site for the same info.
If you had looked, you would have found PA only allows Flintlocks with open sights & must be .44 cal or larger. (BP hand guns .50 or larger).
""The firearm must be an original or similar reproduction of muzzleloading firearm manufactured prior to 1800." That is primitive, since flintlocks were invented in the early to mid 1600s and cap locks were invented in the early 1820s.


https://www.goerie.com/story/sports...tion-pennsylvania-pa-muzzleloader/9012344002/