measuring black powder

[bronko220002]

IMO no matter what method you use you need to be consistent for optimum accuracy.
What I do is I fill my volume measure up leaving a small pile on the top and tap it a couple times with my finger then close the funnel type top.

 

[longcruise]

Since there can be a difference between volumetric and weighed charges, there’s room for confusion, especially for a new shooter.

I think elevating that difference to a safety issue might be somewhat of an overly cautious concern.

Tapping!! I observed shooters Tapping at the range and at shoots for a long while and was pretty sure that their method was less consistent than simply loading the measure and leveling the charge. But, being anal about data i decided to prove that tapping is folly. So I did the bench experiment and weighed out ten tapped and ten not tapped. The tapped were ever so slightly heavier and also more consistent. So that proved me wrong and also proved the fellow in the video wrong. He is not measuring the difference in tap or not tapped, he doesn't realize it but he is measuring the difference in variation of consistency

So, did i become a tapper? No, the difference was not enough to matter. I still have the numbers stashed somewhere in the desktop and can try to retrieve them if anyone wants to see them.

 

[birdog]

I think elevating that difference to a safety issue might be somewhat of an overly cautious concern.

Tapping!! I observed shooters Tapping at the range and at shoots for a long while and was pretty sure that their method was less consistent than simply loading the measure and leveling the charge. But, being anal about data i decided to prove that tapping is folly. So I did the bench experiment and weighed out ten tapped and ten not tapped. The tapped were ever so slightly heavier and also more consistent. So that proved me wrong and also proved the fellow in the video wrong. He is not measuring the difference in tap or not tapped, he doesn't realize it but he is measuring the difference in variation of consistency

So, did i become a tapper? No, the difference was not enough to matter. I still have the numbers stashed somewhere in the desktop and can try to retrieve them if anyone wants to see them.

It is a safety concern if someone gets confused and measures a charge at 120gr when it should 120v. I think that may be what jitterbug is referring to?

 

[Hatchet Jack]

What I like about Swiss 2F is........If I pour and measure 80 grains by volume, it will also weigh very close 80 grains by weight. Usually with in one to two grains.

 

[SparkPlug]

The main thing is consistency. Whatever you do, do it the same way every time.

My 50s prefer 65 grai s of 2f pyrodex. I have a powder measure I made from an antler I use when I'm just woods walking or out back at my range. I fill it loose and level with a straight edge.

However, when hunting I use tubes with a premeasured charge by weight. They are still 65 grains by volume, but are consistent by weight. So, there is less concern over having the same amount from shot to shot.

But, I also mic and weigh my ammo for that sweet spot. Those are used for hunting. The rest are used for plinking.

Is all of this really needed? In my case not really as most of my deer shots are 65 yds or less. But neither the deer or myself has to worry as much about a bad shot.

 

[longcruise]

I'm going to dig up my stats that apply to this topic . I'll post them if I can find em.

 

[jbs27572]

I started reloading cartridges before I really got into muzzle loading so I was already used to weighing my charges. It is just going to be more consistent from charge to charge. I weigh mine and store in quickload tubes so I can grab and go.

 

[jbs27572]

I once wondered how much of a difference there actually was in the amount of powder between charges using a volume measure, and whether tapping the measure or not tapping made much of a difference.
I set my adjustable volume measure for 75 grains. I can't remember if I did the test with 2f or 3f, but know it was Goex. The measure has a funnel on the top that rotates over and "levels off" the top of the charge.
I filled it 10 times and weighed each charge on my powder scale so I could see the max difference between charges and the average between charges. I did 10 charges without tapping, and then 10 charges where I tapped the bottom of the measure on the top of the table 2 times and then topped the measure off (I tap on the top of my muzzle when hunting or at a shoot).
I can't remember specific numbers very well, but there was quite a bit of difference between the two. Not tapping had around a 2 grain more extreme spread than tapping did, as well as a higher average spread between charges.

It's easy to test yourself, give it a try and see what results you get.

Now there is what I like to see, LOL....SCIENCE.

 

[Ninering62]

Now there is what I like to see, LOL....SCIENCE.

He " Blinded me with Science "!

 

[longcruise]

Don't know if I should go ahead with this what with so many showing such sarcasm toward science!

Oh well, here goes. This is going to be kinda long.

Comparison of powder by weight when measure is tapped and untapped before leveling the measure. If memory serves, this was done with scheutzen 3f.

First, the 10 that were poured and sheared without tapping the measure. This was done with a measure with a shear top funnel.

93.5
94.1
93.2
92.5
92.8
93.6
94.0
92.8
93.5
92.2

93.2 Average Weight
.63 Standard Deviation
1.9 Extreme Spread

Next, the ten that were tapped and then sheared

94.3
94.2
93.5
93.9
93.8
94.1
94.1
94.0
94.1
94.3

94.0 Average Weight
.25 Standard Deviation
.8 Extreme Spread

So, tapping is more consistent. I'm not impressed by the difference and have not taken up tapping!

Next, I set a benchtop powder measure at an arbitrary setting and dropped and weighed charges with a balance beam scale.

Graf 3f
55.9
55.5
55.5
55.3
-------
55.55

Goex 2f
51.1
51.7
51.3
51.4
-------
51.37

Goex 3f
52.2
52.1
52.5
52.2
--------
52.25

Elephant 2f
60.2
60.4
60.4
60.1
---------
60.27

Swiss 1.5f
55.9
56.1
56.4
56.2
------
56.15

Swiss 2f
57.4
57.2
57.2
57.4
-------
57.30

Pyrodex RS
37.0
37.1
37.5
36.8
-------
37.10

So, as you can see, volumes and weights vary widely from maker and granulation. Take what you want from this. For me it advised that you pick a powder and shoot it. That simple. Weight or volume, just be consistent. I wish I would have had some various lot numbers of the same brand and granulation to look for differences in lots.

This next data set tells us a bit more about the actual performance of these powders. Pay attention to the mass (weight) of the various powders based on the previous set of data and the velocities produced (energy output)


Average velocities for various powders with charges thrown from 50 grain volumetric measure. and shooting a .530 patched ball from a 32" .54 caliber barrel

Graf 3f

1405
1388
1370
1391
1396
Avg 1390


Elephant 2f

1135
1208
1215
1215
1238
Avg 1201


Swiss 2f

1546
1531
1574
1558
Avg 1552


Goex 2f

1349
1362
1376
Avg 1362


Goex 3f

1469
1516
Avg 1492


These two velocities were the only ones obtainable due to bright sun and erratic chrono behavior

Pyrodex RS

1494


Only one good reading due to changing light conditions on the chrono.

No surprises here. Swiss as expected is the most energetic. Notice however the clear loser on energy was the powder in the volume weight comparisons that threw the most weight by volume. I don't think Elephant is available anymore. The Brazilian factory had a safety record that made goex seem like a good place for a daycare center.

In the market today, the best buy in powder including subs is clearly pyrodex. it's less expensive than any of the holy black and Just as Hodgdon has always said, "more shots per pound" and performance right along with Goex.

That said, I use Scheutzen and have for a few years now. As good as pyrodex is performance wise my own experience says that it can be a bit picky in ignition. In a cap gun, little anomalies or fouling in the flash channel that are ignored by the black become a hangfire with Pyrodex.

As good as Swiss is, I get good velocities and accuracy with Scheutzen (and always have with Goex). The additional cost is enough to dissuade me from buying Swiss.

@Jitterbug This is why I don't consider the use of scales vs volume to be a safety factor. Even though there are differences between wgt and vol, there is not enough to make a difference in terms of safety. One might say that there is considerable difference with Pyrodex, but it's hard to actually buy Pyrodex without being informed of that and in addition, I don't believe there is enough difference to warrant concern.

When a rifle or barrel manufacturer says "max charge xx" it's obvious that there is wiggle room.

Once I did these tests I never again paid any attention to the popular ballistic tables in various manuals and books. They obviously are meaningless IF you want truly accurate information about your ball/patch/lube/powder/rifle/barrel length, etc.

The other thing that I no longer pay much attention to are the endless conversations about how much powder to take a (insert animal of choice). Clearly there is more to it than the volume or weight of the charge employed.

And, finally (whew is he finally done!) to me these numbers only say that there are or can be significant differences in powders but they are not etched in stone. Who knows what the differences may be between the powder tested today and these tested back then. Batches and lot numbers can vary. Just measure it your own way and shoot it.

 

[jbs27572]

Good stuff. I was not being sarcastic. I am a scientist by training and I appreciate someone taking the time to apply the scientific method and gather actual data. I confess I was trying to be funny about it but the sentiment is genuine.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

@longcruise do you think you might test schuetzen against swiss? Say 2f vs 2f?(or swiss 1.5f if thats more comparable to schuetzen) To see which is more energetic and also weight to volume comparison?

 

[deermanok]

I find your tests very interesting. Thanks for taking the time to put it all together.
I used Goex for years, with the occasional Pyrodex.
Over the last few years, I switched to Old Ensyford, which is a Goex product and also use Swiss black powders.

 

[longcruise]

@deermanok I've heard a lot about old eyensford but haven't seen it being used much. If goex brings it back I'll definitely try some. I have enough Scheutzen to make it through the shooting get togethers and fall seasons. If Goex is bringing it back we should have availability by then.

 

[longcruise]

@longcruise do you think you might test schuetzen against swiss? Say 2f vs 2f?(or swiss 1.5f if thats more comparable to schuetzen) To see which is more energetic and

weight to volume comparison?

No, I no longer have that range of powders on hand. However, the Graf powder was purchased at the time that it was schuetzen re packaged.

Good stuff. I was not being sarcastic. I

I know, just tossing a little humor around Not serious.

 

[Wil]

I'm a tapper, only because I don't like shearing off overfilled powder onto the ground from swinging the funnel around. Usually two light taps of the finger is enough to satisfy me. Powder costs have made waste a no no.

 

[Okie Hog]

The plastic contraptions and the measures with the graduated rod are inaccurare.

This is the best powder measure by far:

https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/black-powder/black-powder-tools/powder-measures-and-flasks/
Fill the measure a little overfull and then strike it level with a finger, no tapping, no nothing else.

 

[ElDiablo]

Consistency is the real key. I like to overfill, tap, overfill, tap and cut off with the funnel top.

 

[earlwb]

Consistency is the main key. I agree with you other guys. No matter what method you use you have to do it the same each time.

 

[Apparition]

Just to add a bit....Hodgdon stated that they allow/alter the density of black powder and subs so that the energy is consistent by volume between lots of powder. this does not mean you could not use weight after you measure a new lot by volume. or you could use velocity to determine your charge.