Michigan.... FYI

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michiganmuzzy said:
I wonder how much trouble it would get me in if I did put a gun warning sign in the window? Like those old helping hand signs or protected by Ruger? I live in a fairly conservative area and pretty sure everyone is carrying or owns a firearm for defense.
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Hi again Michigan Muzzy. I have one of those signs on my garage next to my house, but I think it's more of a joke than anything else. It might do some good, if they believe I am an armed citizen, believe in the second amendment and take protecting our property serious. All I know from what I read, even with help from the NRA on your lawyer bill, it will probably break you to defend yourself. If you didn't kill them, they will sue, and if you kill them, their family will sue. It's a Lose lose argument whether to shoot to kill, or shoot to wound, but I think you stand a better chance of surviving with less problems if you only wound them. If they had injured one of my family members, all bets are off and I would shoot to kill. Remember, if you ever get into this situation, put the gun down before the cops arrive, and put your hands up, because they don't know who the bad guy is. After reading that book, I hope not to get involved because this is one of those deals where they think you're guilty until proven innocent and not innocent until proven guilty. Even if you don't read the book, remember if you ever called dispatch That something bad has happened, they are recording everything you say, so don't say much.
Squint
 
Taking a life is to be prevented to every possible degree. Think of this. Irregardless of the circumstances if you kill a person and they are not saved, they will never have the opportunity to be saved. That my friends makes me ill to think of it.
 
snapbang said:
Alan Korwin With the title, AFTER YOU SHOOT. I just ordered it on Ebay. Used for 4.99 tax and shipping.
Click to expand...

Good for you snapbang. I've heard a lot of people say is somebody just breaks in, I'm just gonna shoot them. I don't think they realize that that's when the troubles begin. I bought my book the same way, secondhand on either Amazon or eBay, but it's probably been three or four years ago. I've loaned it out to several people, it's always came back, is just a good eye-opener. This new stand your ground law, that many are using, is not necessarily a wise thing. If I go out the back door and they are chasing me, things could change rapidly, but there's nothing in my house worth dying over but my wife.
Squint
 
Well said pippinhoward. We've also discussed that if you are held up for your money, give it to them. Also offer them the car keys if they like and wish them a nice day. Nothing but the wife and kids are worth getting killed or killing for.
 
There is no way I am caught in this day and age without personal defense liability insurance. My choice is USCCA - https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/membership/. Been with them 12 years now and they keep getting better. Platinum Membership costs me 86 cents a day, and there's a discount for paying yearly vs. monthly and auto-renewing annually, as well as a renewal loyalty discount. The training alone is worth it, but having bail bond, retainer & attorney fees covered up to $150k on the criminal side and $1m on civil defense & damages is real peace of mind.

NRA has launched CarryGuard, which is certainly worth looking into, but USCCA's coverage and benefits package at the Platinum or Elite level still beats it from where I sit. There are some "also-ran" agencies out there; but while the difference between USCCA and NRA is a few seconds under the white flag heading for the checkers, 3rd place is down by several laps and the rest trail far back from there. Even as a Life Member of the NRA, I found USCCA to be the more practical choice for coverage. USCCA will cover all members of your household for self defense actions taken under your roof, and for the Wherever-I-May-Roam coverage, you can add your spouse to your membership's legal coverage for under $50/year. And for the covered primary member (and fully-covered added spouse if applicable), this coverage extends to wherever you are in the U.S., and covers self-defense by any means. Bare hands, gat, mattock handle, bumper of your truck, river rocks, Ginsu, slapjack, bottle of Tabasco, boot heel, Grandma's cast iron skillet...

Don't badger any of these agencies for "success stories" on the civil suits side. Just like homeowners' insurance settlements with intruders' survivors after in-home defense incidents, wherein the offenders are expensively wounded, permanently disabled, or laid out for the coroner, those settlements are between the insuring payer and the plaintiff with sealed settlements and confidentiality clauses. I'm not trying to give USCCA an unpaid advertisement spot here; but as a retired legal professional, I can only attest from my own professional experience that families of offenders do sue defending homeowners after the fact - and win money, even when the police and DA's offices have called the situation a clear case of self defense. There's a whole discipline of personal injury practice within the world of ambulance chasing law firms, which revolves around the idea that whether or not you are criminally charged with anything, a civil case can be constructed that you did not specifically intend for the attacker to be killed or maimed, and thus the fact that it actually happened was because you negligently applied unintended levels of deadly force and thus are liable for medical bills, pain & suffering, or in the case of the intruder/attacker's demise, lost income, lost medical coverage, emotional stress on the family, and other flavors of civil damages. These are almost always settled out of court between the home insurer and plaintiff, and can quickly strip a few hundred thousand dollars (I've personally sat in on a $1.3m settlement) from your homeowner's policy's lifetime catastrophic liability cap.

Again, because I love all of you self-sufficient freedom-loving men & women here in this forum like the patriotic brothers & sisters you are to me under the Stars & Stripes, I urge that if you haven't looked into personal defense liability insurance, please do. Please read the book SnapBang cited by Alan Korwin, or other works by Andrew Branca, Kathy Jackson, and so on. There are folks who refer to Mas Ayoob as a worn-out caricature because his books are largely reprints of his previous articles from martial arts magazines, but there's a reason he's made a lucrative career as an expert witness in criminal & civil cases at which self defense with deadly force is a central issue. Don't just sit back and wonder what might happen, or buy into "the word on the street," or listen to your buddy the well-meaning and very experienced cop who has NEVER set foot into a closed-door settlement between attorneys for the plaintiff and those representing the insurance policy issuer. There's a whole new sequence of nightmarish experiences that can often follow a self defense incident involving deadly force, even when you truly have done your best to do everything right before and during the event.
 
Don't know how many you gentlemen have been in combat with rifle but is no easy feat to do what your talking, Just something to think on
 
NatureNick said:
There is no way I am caught in this day and age without personal defense liability insurance. My choice is USCCA - https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/membership/. Been with them 12 years now and they keep getting better. Platinum Membership costs me 86 cents a day, and there's a discount for paying yearly vs. monthly and auto-renewing annually, as well as a renewal loyalty discount. The training alone is worth it, but having bail bond, retainer & attorney fees covered up to $150k on the criminal side and $1m on civil defense & damages is real peace of mind.

NRA has launched CarryGuard, which is certainly worth looking into, but USCCA's coverage and benefits package at the Platinum or Elite level still beats it from where I sit. There are some "also-ran" agencies out there; but while the difference between USCCA and NRA is a few seconds under the white flag heading for the checkers, 3rd place is down by several laps and the rest trail far back from there. Even as a Life Member of the NRA, I found USCCA to be the more practical choice for coverage. USCCA will cover all members of your household for self defense actions taken under your roof, and for the Wherever-I-May-Roam coverage, you can add your spouse to your membership's legal coverage for under $50/year. And for the covered primary member (and fully-covered added spouse if applicable), this coverage extends to wherever you are in the U.S., and covers self-defense by any means. Bare hands, gat, mattock handle, bumper of your truck, river rocks, Ginsu, slapjack, bottle of Tabasco, boot heel, Grandma's cast iron skillet...

Don't badger any of these agencies for "success stories" on the civil suits side. Just like homeowners' insurance settlements with intruders' survivors after in-home defense incidents, wherein the offenders are expensively wounded, permanently disabled, or laid out for the coroner, those settlements are between the insuring payer and the plaintiff with sealed settlements and confidentiality clauses. I'm not trying to give USCCA an unpaid advertisement spot here; but as a retired legal professional, I can only attest from my own professional experience that families of offenders do sue defending homeowners after the fact - and win money, even when the police and DA's offices have called the situation a clear case of self defense. There's a whole discipline of personal injury practice within the world of ambulance chasing law firms, which revolves around the idea that whether or not you are criminally charged with anything, a civil case can be constructed that you did not specifically intend for the attacker to be killed or maimed, and thus the fact that it actually happened was because you negligently applied unintended levels of deadly force and thus are liable for medical bills, pain & suffering, or in the case of the intruder/attacker's demise, lost income, lost medical coverage, emotional stress on the family, and other flavors of civil damages. These are almost always settled out of court between the home insurer and plaintiff, and can quickly strip a few hundred thousand dollars (I've personally sat in on a $1.3m settlement) from your homeowner's policy's lifetime catastrophic liability cap.

Again, because I love all of you self-sufficient freedom-loving men & women here in this forum like the patriotic brothers & sisters you are to me under the Stars & Stripes, I urge that if you haven't looked into personal defense liability insurance, please do. Please read the book SnapBang cited by Alan Korwin, or other works by Andrew Branca, Kathy Jackson, and so on. There are folks who refer to Mas Ayoob as a worn-out caricature because his books are largely reprints of his previous articles from martial arts magazines, but there's a reason he's made a lucrative career as an expert witness in criminal & civil cases at which self defense with deadly force is a central issue. Don't just sit back and wonder what might happen, or buy into "the word on the street," or listen to your buddy the well-meaning and very experienced cop who has NEVER set foot into a closed-door settlement between attorneys for the plaintiff and those representing the insurance policy issuer. There's a whole new sequence of nightmarish experiences that can often follow a self defense incident involving deadly force, even when you truly have done your best to do everything right before and during the event.
Click to expand...

Thanks Nick for a very good eye opening article. You are 100% right. That book I mentioned, after you shoot, Mentions many of the things that you have here. I don't think people realize the liability that's involved when you shoot somebody, and shoot them dead doesn't make it better. Thank God we're not in England for their the homeowner is always wrong. Here we can get insurance to protect ourselves from these crazy lawsuits. All you have to do is take a good concealed weapon course and you can see just how much trouble you could get into just protecting your own life.
Thanks again
squint
 
45-70 said:
Don't know how many you gentlemen have been in combat with rifle but is no easy feat to do what your talking, Just something to think on
Click to expand...
I have great respect for that perspective, as well. I don't mean to gloss over the moral issues one must resolve within oneself before using deadly force in self defense; I just meant to share my point of view on insuring my family's liberty and livelihood against the legal and financial aftermath if one of us had to use violence in self defense.
 
Last edited:
snapbang said:
Well said pippinhoward. We've also discussed that if you are held up for your money, give it to them. Also offer them the car keys if they like and wish them a nice day. Nothing but the wife and kids are worth getting killed or killing for.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately you can't rely on the good nature of the robber to leave you in peace after you hand over your stuff. There are some vicious people in this world that would kill you just because you have seen them.
 

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