Primer Affect Accuracy?

[ronlaughlin]

The wind wasn't howling this morning, so i took advantage and shot the rifle. It was five degrees; bitter cold, so i shot from inside the truck with my left elbow on the window ledge, and my right elbow in the steering wheel. Made three, three shot group.

Began with a shiny clean cold barrel aimed at the low target. There was no breeze initially. The first three shots were ignited by W209 primer. Then the scope windage was moved left, then a slight right to left breeze came. Aim was changed to the top target, and three shots taken using the W209 primer.

Then the elevation dial was turned down, and on a whim, i switched the primer to the 209A. The o-ring in the breech plug socket allows for a perfect seal using both primer. Aim was bottom target, and three shots taken before the breeze increased further.

This morning shooting does not prove the 209A primer are more accurate does it? Group size was halved. Dang, it seems i am forced to shoot more.

 

[Highoctane]

I will be doing this testing out of my rifle Friday, weather dependent. I have CCI 209M and Fed 209A. May try to rustle up some Win 209. I am curious as to the difference with a few different powder charges, if any, out of my rifle.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

[QUOTE="ronlaughlin, post: 270275, member]

This morning shooting does not prove the 209A primer are more accurate does it? Group size was halved. Dang, it seems i am forced to shoot more.[/QUOTE]
I would for sure shoot some more groups with the 209A primers. The seem dirtier in my Accura bp. But if they are that much better...

 

[WV Hunter]

That's good truck shooting Ron regardless! Knowing you it was probably with a 4x scope. LOL

If you can repeat that - I'd say for that load and that gun, the 209A are the better choice.

 

[Confederate rifleman]

Over the years I've found primers can have a profound effect on accuracy in breech as well as muzzleloaders.
In muzzleloaders, I've noticed that the least powerful primer, consistent with full ignition, usually gives the best accuracy. I believe the force of the primer can get the charge moving before full ignition takes place. Load compression/ density are effected.
My daughter's Traditions Tracker 209 showed significantly better accuracy by using musket caps instead of 209s.
Of course, there are other factors too. A heavier load will offer more resistance to the primer blast.
I switched from musket caps to #11s in both my Black Diamonds and both rifles showed improvement.

 

[dwm]

Very interesting, thanks for that

 

[Dougs136Schwartz]

That surprises me Ron. Very interesting.Are all three primers sealing well ?

 

[ronlaughlin]

Both the 209A, and the W209 primers sealed perfectly. One shouldn't make too much of results from just one trip out.

Follows is four shots taken at the top target this morning, on the same target used yesterday. Used 209A primers. All else remained the same except the breeze was a little different; the shooter doesn't appear to be as steady........

 

[michiganmuzzy]

Both the 209A, and the W209 primers sealed perfectly. One shouldn't make too much of results from just one trip out.[=quote]

I agree, a couple more trips should confirm either way. Plus a couple more trips with the w209s. Maybe you've got the load dialed in, and that may be as good as it will get.

 

[smokepolepaul54]

I've been using Cecil Epp's Vari-Flame adapters for several years in my T/C Omega (pre- S&W). It made a big difference in group sizes. It consistently shoots one in groups at 100 yards.

They may not be for everyone but they have worked for me.

I sent 2 breech plugs to him to be machined out to fit his large rifle/pistol adapters (small rifle adapters have been discontinued). Looking forward to getting them back to use in my T/C Triumph and Traditions Vortek StrikerFire.

Here's where you can read about them: https://www.prbullet.com/lrvf.htm

 

[ronlaughlin]

Maybe i will try them tomorrow if the wind isn't too bad.

 

[ronlaughlin]

This morning i left the house early trying to beat the breeze. Only shot five times. When finished it was only 8:05 am. Breeze wasn't too bad, and was quite consistent. This morning the primer of choice was the Federal 209A. The parameters were about the same as the OP, except one yard further, warmer, and only used the 209A primer.

The aim was the bottom target; the first two shots hit high left. Then, i changed how i held the rifle with the left hand, and shot the next three shots.

What i am wondering a little more now; is the 209A primer providing better ignition than the W209? It kinda seems so.

 

[GM54-120]

I get a kick out of Cecils claim about the LRMP yet its never been proven in competition. Although its not without merit either. LRMP is the rage now with customs but not for accuracy as much as durability. They simply handle hot loads better and allow for a much shorter flame path in some rifles. They will offer virtually nothing for a long plug except for being cleaner.

The truth is in the inline matches is that guys using BH209 are using a lot of 209 mag primers. Some of the best scores ever shot were with 209s. Bestill used his own LRMP setup at one time but saw no advantage as far as competition IIRC.

I had my newest Knight plug setup to handle the Fed209A better just for piece of mind if i end up hunting in cooler temps.

 

[BuckDoeHunter]

The first target posted with the 209A group and the last 209A group posted are very similar. I’m curious as to the order of the shots, is the very slight flyer 1, 2, or 3?

That’s some nice shooting at 200yds.

 

[ronlaughlin]

 

[SuperKirby]

Nice shooting for sure. I'd say what ever you changed with your left hand holding the rifle, remember that and do it again.

 

[ronlaughlin]

..........I'd say what ever you changed with your left hand holding the rifle, remember that and do it again.

Good Advice! What i did was move from holding the forearm in the palm, to between the thumb, and first finger. This moves the palm from facing up to facing forward, and kinda resting on the ledge.

 

[Dougs136Schwartz]

Very good shooting at 200 yards out of a truck window !

 

[ronlaughlin]

Say Doug, did you ever get the impression that the lots of Blackhorn that are denser than lots that weigh 84g for 120g volume, are harder to ignite? Like this lot i am shooting right now seems maybe it is harder to ignite than some i have shot before. Something like this is hard for me to identify/pin down; i have never said it out loud before. Seems like i could be imagining it.

Recently it seems there are more unexplained fliers than i am used to experiencing. We even sent a scope back to Leupold because of fliers, and now i am wondering if the fliers were because of my using W209 primers, instead of 209A primer, and not the scope. The scope i shot for over a year, before i gave up, and sent it to Leupold. Now, i am worried Leupold will be mad at me, because there is nothing wrong with the scope.......

 

[smokepolepaul54]

I get a kick out of Cecils claim about the LRMP yet its never been proven in competition. Although its not without merit either. LRMP is the rage now with customs but not for accuracy as much as durability. They simply handle hot loads better and allow for a much shorter flame path in some rifles. They will offer virtually nothing for a long plug except for being cleaner.

The truth is in the inline matches is that guys using BH209 are using a lot of 209 mag primers. Some of the best scores ever shot were with 209s. Bestill used his own LRMP setup at one time but saw no advantage as far as competition IIRC.

I had my newest Knight plug setup to handle the Fed209A better just for piece of mind if i end up hunting in cooler temps.

Like I said, they're not for everyone.