Rebarreling the 10ML-II...

[HighTechRedneck]

I am gona have to quit reading this thread. The more times I visit it the more I think that I made a mistake sending Ron my NEF instead of my 10ML II. My original 10ML outperforms my 10ML II by far, and I am confident that one of Rons SMI barrels would be a cure for that. Instead of curing the problem I am just going to have a 3rd smokeless smokepole.

 

[Anonymous]

Instead of curing the problem I am just going to have a 3rd smokeless smokepole.

How could that be a problem? You need to have your 3rd, before you can own your 4th. :lol:

 

[HighTechRedneck]

I meant the problems with my 10ML II that I did not have with my original 10 ML. Not the problem of needing to own more firearms.

 

[Anonymous]

:lol:

Yes, and that meant "LOL."

Can anyone rattle off ALL the variables present in the accuracy of an individual firearm, much less a muzzleloader? :?: :?: :?: Okay, now make it a muzzleloader!

Let's say you bought an $749 Encore, and the best you could get was 2". What do you think Thompson will tell you? You don't have to guess, you can just call them and ask; same with Knight, etc.

Make it a Ruger .30-06 if you wish, or a Winchester Model 70. It's all relative.

 

[SW]

I always wondered how a really good barrel would shoot on a 10MLII. Maybe not enough to justify the extra cost, but a barrel without those radial machine marks would be nice.

Does the action control accuracy? Would an SMI Barrel be more accurate on a Savage then an Encore? Or would they be the same?

All benchrest rifles are bolt action. This is due to the inherent accuracy of the bolt action. Granted, as previously mentioned, the practical difference, for us in smokeless MLing, would be negligable.

 

[big6x6]

In any rifle, in any discipline where allowed, bolt actions are far superior to break-action anythings in terms of accuracy-- that has been established for a long, long time. They are automatically superior in the field, particularly in off-hand shooting compared to hammer guns due to locktime.

Not to mention a one-piece stock.

 

[encoreguy]

Hammer gun vs. bolt action accuracy. The only thing that I would agree with is the slower lock time. The biggest factor in the accuracy difference on centerfire rifles is the lock up (in which the bolt is far superior). The Encores / G2's really benefit from reloading to get the bullet jump to the lands consistent. However, in a muzzleloading rifle that is not a factor since bullet / sabot are already in the lands and grooves and you don't have to worry about head space. In my opinion the bolt gun has no advantage in a muzzleloader except lock time. In the Encore, I have seen muzzlelaoder groups much better than centerfire Encore groups, which can only be due to how they are loaded. Would I go out and spend $600 on a Encore and then spend $400 on a smokeless barrel? NO, I would buy a Savage or for that much money you could have a NULA. If you already have the Encore receiver, I would go either way depending on which gun you like the feel of. Since I have a Encore, I will go with a SMI because I can pick my twist rate, barrel length, etc. Plus it was a pistol and my 7-08mm on a great rest will out shoot them all when I do my part. Not to mention if I sold my Encore, I would no longer be Encoreguy :lol:

 

[dwhunter]

Hammer gun vs. bolt action accuracy. The only thing that I would agree with is the slower lock time. The biggest factor in the accuracy difference on centerfire rifles is the lock up (in which the bolt is far superior). The Encores / G2's really benefit from reloading to get the bullet jump to the lands consistent. However, in a muzzleloading rifle that is not a factor since bullet / sabot are already in the lands and grooves and you don't have to worry about head space. In my opinion the bolt gun has no advantage in a muzzleloader except lock time. In the Encore, I have seen muzzlelaoder groups much better than centerfire Encore groups, which can only be due to how they are loaded. Would I go out and spend $600 on a Encore and then spend $400 on a smokeless barrel? NO, I would buy a Savage or for that much money you could have a NULA. If you already have the Encore receiver, I would go either way depending on which gun you like the feel of. Since I have a Encore, I will go with a SMI because I can pick my twist rate, barrel length, etc. Plus it was a pistol and my 7-08mm on a great rest will out shoot them all when I do my part. Not to mention if I sold my Encore, I would no longer be Encoreguy :lol:

You will spend as much on a SMI barrel for that Encore as for a Savage cause I've already checked into it. I bought another Savage.

 

[IndianaHunter]

Hammer gun vs. bolt action accuracy. The only thing that I would agree with is the slower lock time. The biggest factor in the accuracy difference on centerfire rifles is the lock up (in which the bolt is far superior). The Encores / G2's really benefit from reloading to get the bullet jump to the lands consistent. However, in a muzzleloading rifle that is not a factor since bullet / sabot are already in the lands and grooves and you don't have to worry about head space. In my opinion the bolt gun has no advantage in a muzzleloader except lock time. In the Encore, I have seen muzzlelaoder groups much better than centerfire Encore groups, which can only be due to how they are loaded. Would I go out and spend $600 on a Encore and then spend $400 on a smokeless barrel? NO, I would buy a Savage or for that much money you could have a NULA. If you already have the Encore receiver, I would go either way depending on which gun you like the feel of. Since I have a Encore, I will go with a SMI because I can pick my twist rate, barrel length, etc. Plus it was a pistol and my 7-08mm on a great rest will out shoot them all when I do my part. Not to mention if I sold my Encore, I would no longer be Encoreguy :lol:

You will spend as much on a SMI barrel for that Encore as for a Savage cause I've already checked into it. I bought another Savage.

DW, what did you give for another Savage?

 

[IndianaHunter]

Hey Tom, What?s up? I'm with you on many of your comments concerning this thread. My HB has shot many loads with great accuracy some with you in attendance. So has my newest addition, the NEF/SMI-50. To quote an old friend? can any deer live off the difference?? Well we all know the answer to that question? As for the smooth and easy loading that Chuck is referring to, it really is night and day between my HB and my SMI. Is one better in the fundamentals; accuracy and performance? Not at all... I think the value of Savage?s production gun is outstanding; it is safe sensible performance? For what Ron will charge for a barrel for an Encore it would be a step I?d take as well to give me more flexibility with a system that is build with that in mind. So in closing I find great value in both the Savage 10ml-II and the SMI replacement barrels provided by Ron Name. I like the fact that I own a HB and while I toyed early with the idea of re-barreling it with a Douglass barrel so good sound advice has me holding on to it for the value of its creator. I will however spend a bit more time this winter playing with the idea of a .45 SMI barrel for my NEF to see if a slower twist with N-110 just might shoot a 200 to 225 grain .358 bullet with acceptable accuracy. It appears there are many good bullets in this category to choose from?.

 

[Anonymous]

Hammer gun vs. bolt action accuracy. The only thing that I would agree with is the slower lock time.

http://www.charm.net/~kmarsh/accuracy.html

"Break-open and falling block actions are highly variable in accuracy performance and very susceptible to bedding problems. Resting the foreend on anything causes verticle stringing, and the slightest bit of looseness in the buttstock as well. These single shots are also sensitve to lock-tension."

You cannot truly float a barrel with a two piece stock. Lacking that, the tuning fork that is the barrel is prone to singing out of tune.

 

[dwhunter]

That's the very reason I don't want to put a lot of money towards that style of gun. Then after all that you have the turtle slow lock time issue.

 

[Grouse]

Hey Tom, What?s up? I'm with you on many of your comments concerning this thread. My HB has shot many loads with great accuracy some with you in attendance. So has my newest addition, the NEF/SMI-50. To quote an old friend? can any deer live off the difference?? Well we all know the answer to that question? As for the smooth and easy loading that Chuck is referring to, it really is night and day between my HB and my SMI. Is one better in the fundamentals; accuracy and performance? Not at all... I think the value of Savage?s production gun is outstanding; it is safe sensible performance? For what Ron will charge for a barrel for an Encore it would be a step I?d take as well to give me more flexibility with a system that is build with that in mind. So in closing I find great value in both the Savage 10ml-II and the SMI replacement barrels provided by Ron Name. I like the fact that I own a HB and while I toyed early with the idea of re-barreling it with a Douglass barrel so good sound advice has me holding on to it for the value of its creator. I will however spend a bit more time this winter playing with the idea of a .45 SMI barrel for my NEF to see if a slower twist with N-110 just might shoot a 200 to 225 grain .358 bullet with acceptable accuracy. It appears there are many good bullets in this category to choose from?.

The Encore will go Smokeless very shortly.... :wink:

 

[encoreguy]

Hammer gun vs. bolt action accuracy. The only thing that I would agree with is the slower lock time.

http://www.charm.net/~kmarsh/accuracy.html

"Break-open and falling block actions are highly variable in accuracy performance and very susceptible to bedding problems. Resting the foreend on anything causes verticle stringing, and the slightest bit of looseness in the buttstock as well. These single shots are also sensitve to lock-tension."

You cannot truly float a barrel with a two piece stock. Lacking that, the tuning fork that is the barrel is prone to singing out of tune.

As long as we shoot with a ram rod in our guns the "tuning fork" idea is not valid. In 1/2 hour you can put in 2 pillars for your forearm to rest on and "float the barrel rather well. Encores do require a little work to get the most accuracy out of them, but so do Savage ML-II's (which is a great gun) 3rd pillar, glass bedding, etc. My Encore will shoot 3/4 to 1/2" groups with old nasty 777. Again if you already have a Encore frame and for $400 you can get a "better quality" barrel with perhaps a more sabot friendly twist rate why not. Both are great guns and have their merits. If the lock time and accuracy issues are so horrible, why are they still the top used handguns in the long range metal target game. They will shoot right with, many times better than, the XP -100 bolt hand guns. Until mine is finished and I shoot it, I guess I will not know for sure. Many of my Encore rifles and handguns will shoot 1/2 - 3/4 moa. That is about as good as most factory guns will do.

 

[Mountain Man]

...
As long as we shoot with a ram rod in our guns the "tuning fork" idea is not valid.

That' the reason the first thing I did when I got my Savage was to remove the sights and ramrod thimble. A take-down ramrod in the fanny pack works great--besides, I've haven't needed a follow-up shot yet!