Rethinking Elk Loads

[Muley Hunter]

First off Ron. You need to work on your English comprehension. I said mule deer and bear are harder to hunt. Not kill!
If you shoot an elk and it runs off and dies. Was that hard to kill? Dead is dead. Do elk ever run off when you shoot them with your big hunk of lead? Are they all dead on impact? I won't believe you if you say yes.
Elk have been killed with a PRB from the beginning and will continue to kill them. Am I recommending to use a PRB. No, not at all, but if someone wants to it will work. Go to a traditional muzzleloader forum and tell them a PRB won't work on an elk. Let us know how that works out for you.

I don't take pictures of kills. I don't brag about kills. I talk about hunting methods and that's all. I was brought up to not brag. I might mention about a load I use but never talk about a kill. You are the opposite and can't stop talking about your kills. If you don't want to believe i've ever killed any game that's your choice. It doesn't bother me a bit. I don't come to forums to brag. I come to answer questions when I can and fool around a bit. That's all.

What I don't do is come to forums to argue. I gave my opinion and if you don't like it that's too bad. It doesn't make you right. This is not helpful to anybody, so let's drop it.

 

[LarryBud]

I don’t want to get into the middle here but I will say I’d rather not track anything. Without blood, tracking is tough on the hard rock and gravel floor of the No Col forest. They cover a lot of ground fast after a MZ load goes off in their kitchen. No, if I must track there’s a chance of a loss. I want them down ASAP.

While I had a nice broadside shot last time, they more often come in head on to the calls in my experience. I beleive a double lunger is the exception. I’ve ordered the 495 no excuses 50s. The last of my old supply shot nice out of the Knight Disc Extreme but very poorly out of the Omega ( QLA, I know ). The Omega will keeep the Thor’s.

I will say 15 or so rounds of a 495 with 80 grains of T7 reminds me that I’ll want it sighted in with as few shots as possible. I’m still a little sore from Sunday shooting.

 

[Muley Hunter]

That's part of the problem Larry. I like to enjoy shooting and do quite a bit during the year. The big conicals aren't that much fun to shoot for me.

 

[DavePA]

Idadoron - just curious about your comment that Hornady is a bad choice. I assume you're speaking of their Great Plains Bullets? Is your poor experiences from actual field experience? They shoot so well in my .54 I can't hardly believe they'd be a bad choice with good bullet placement at reasonable ranges.

Thanks.

 

[nocomike]

I don’t want to get into the middle here but I will say I’d rather not track anything. Without blood, tracking is tough on the hard rock and gravel floor of the No Col forest. They cover a lot of ground fast after a MZ load goes off in their kitchen. No, if I must track there’s a chance of a loss. I want them down ASAP.

While I had a nice broadside shot last time, they more often come in head on to the calls in my experience. I beleive a double lunger is the exception. I’ve ordered the 495 no excuses 50s. The last of my old supply shot nice out of the Knight Disc Extreme but very poorly out of the Omega ( QLA, I know ). The Omega will keeep the Thor’s.

I will say 15 or so rounds of a 495 with 80 grains of T7 reminds me that I’ll want it sighted in with as few shots as possible. I’m still a little sore from Sunday shooting.

I share your sentiments regarding tracking. Especially since the three muzzleloader-killed bulls I have direct experience with left little or no blood trail. All three of these bulls were double lung and died pretty quick; the furthest one went maybe 70-80 yards at the most. I hate to consider the possibility of a shot coming during the last few minutes of shooting light knowing that if the elk goes several hundred yards before expiring it will likely not be recovered until the following morning. With the warm temperatures we generally have in Colorado during mid September that will likely result in lost meat (or at the least severely degraded in quality.) I have the utmost respect for elk and how tough they can be to put down "on the spot". And I know from firsthand experience how losing an elk can ruin a season, at least for myself. (and why I will never hunt them with archery tackle again) I will not take a shot that doesn't offer a double lung with my muzzy, for elk.

 

[Dougs136Schwartz]

I have a very good friend that is a avid Elk hunter . (Jeff Blakley)He goes and has gone to Colorado for over 20 years. He spends 1 month on the Mountain every year . A month straight ! Jeff tells me Elk are the tuffest animals to kill.(or should i say find) Jeff says they have incredible stamina and a will to live . I have no idea this is just what i have been told by a avid elk hunter.

 

[idahoron]

First off Ron. You need to work on your English comprehension. I said mule deer and bear are harder to hunt. Not kill!
If you shoot an elk and it runs off and dies. Was that hard to kill? Dead is dead. Do elk ever run off when you shoot them with your big hunk of lead? Are they all dead on impact? I won't believe you if you say yes.
Elk have been killed with a PRB from the beginning and will continue to kill them. Am I recommending to use a PRB. No, not at all, but if someone wants to it will work. Go to a traditional muzzleloader forum and tell them a PRB won't work on an elk. Let us know how that works out for you.

I don't take pictures of kills. I don't brag about kills. I talk about hunting methods and that's all. I was brought up to not brag. I might mention about a load I use but never talk about a kill. You are the opposite and can't stop talking about your kills. If you don't want to believe i've ever killed any game that's your choice. It doesn't bother me a bit. I don't come to forums to brag. I come to answer questions when I can and fool around a bit. That's all.

What I don't do is come to forums to argue. I gave my opinion and if you don't like it that's too bad. It doesn't make you right. This is not helpful to anybody, so let's drop it.

I honestly think you need to take your own recommendation on learning more about the English language.
If you shoot an animal and it runs off YES FRICKEN YES that means they are hard to kill. That is exactly what that means.

With my bullets I had one elk drop at the shot DRT. The second dropped at the shot got up went 20 yards and fell.

PRB will work if they are used correctly. Never use a 50 for elk. Never take more than a 50 yard shot at most. Last always track the animal even if you don't see blood.

Hey if you have ZERO evidence that your hunting and shooting info works by all means make sure you tell people that when you give them help. You can start off by saying "oh by the way I have never actually had any luck with this method but believe me it works".

I take pictures, and keep records. I know what bullet I shot at what deer or elk. I keep these records for proof that those methods work and yes to brag a bit. But I also keep them just to shut guys like you up. If you give advise maybe you should make sure it is true.

I will drop it, But I will say one last thing. Guys that need help need info that is backed up with experience. Try it some time.

 

[idahoron]

Idadoron - just curious about your comment that Hornady is a bad choice. I assume you're speaking of their Great Plains Bullets? Is your poor experiences from actual field experience? They shoot so well in my .54 I can't hardly believe they'd be a bad choice with good bullet placement at reasonable ranges.

Thanks.

I used to shoot only the 410 gr 50 caliber. That bullet was a solid point with a cup base like the 385. I used that bullet to shoot several deer. I have to be honest the 410 is a better constructed bullet than the 385. The first deer I shot with those was over 30 years ago. The Hornady bullets are accurate bullets. The smallest 3 shot group I have ever shot at 100 yards was with the Hornady.

But there is much more to the equation than the most accurate bullet. The bullet must work well on game if that is the intended purpose of the bullet.
This buck was shot with the 410.

I shot that buck twice once at 125 yards. The second time at about 50 yards. Neither bullet exited the animal. Both were broad side shots.

This buck was also shot with the 410 gr Hornady. This buck was hit 4 times and stayed on his feet. 3 of the bullets were still in the animal. He went about 300 yards before he went down.

This was the last buck I shot with the Hornady bullets. By this time I was not happy at all with the performance on game.

The Hornady 385 is a poorly thought out bullet for game. Hollow points are not needed to put down game. A well constructed bullet with a wide meplat that punches through game at any angle is the bullet that I constantly trust.
I have many pictures of game I have taken with my own bullets but they are not the topic of this discussion.

 

[idahoron]

I have a very good friend that is a avid Elk hunter . (Jeff Blakley)He goes and has gone to Colorado for over 20 years. He spends 1 month on the Mountain every year . A month straight ! Jeff tells me Elk are the tuffest animals to kill.(or should i say find) Jeff says they have incredible stamina and a will to live . I have no idea this is just what i have been told by a avid elk hunter.

He is absolutely right. There are times when the stars align and the elk will fall DRT. But most of the time you can expect to trail them up a while. I have seen close to 75 head of elk hit the dirt. I have seen some fall DRT and others that have made us track them sometimes miles to get them finished.
Elk have my respect. They are tough.

 

[Muley Hunter]

You don't think that hundreds and maybe thousands of pictures have been shown of dead elk from a PRB? Is one more really needed? The PRB has been used for hunting for hundreds of years. There's no question that it works. You know that and are just giving me a hard time because that's what you do.

The problem with guys like you who show pictures of all your kills is you think if someone isn't just like you they never killed any game. How many members on this forum haven't shown pictures of their kills? Are you saying all of them shouldn't be listened to when they give advice?

You need to keep your ego pumped up by showing pictures. You don't impress everybody. You did say one thing that I agree with. You show pictures to brag and you do it well. Probably all the practice you get.

Well, I thought i'd try this forum again but I got the same result. Too bad because some good guys are here. I'll stay with the AmericanLongRifle forum. Nothing but traditional sidelock, PRB, and real black powder used. I get along fine there.

Go there Ron and say a PRB is too weak for elk. Should be good for laughs. Don't bother responding to this. I won't see it.

Cya guys.

 

[idahoron]

You don't think that hundreds and maybe thousands of pictures have been shown of dead elk from a PRB? Is one more really needed? The PRB has been used for hunting for hundreds of years. There's no question that it works. You know that and are just giving me a hard time because that's what you do.

The problem with guys like you who show pictures of all your kills is you think if someone isn't just like you they never killed any game. How many members on this forum haven't shown pictures of their kills? Are you saying all of them shouldn't be listened to when they give advice?

You need to keep your ego pumped up by showing pictures. You don't impress everybody. You did say one thing that I agree with. You show pictures to brag and you do it well. Probably all the practice you get.

Well, I thought i'd try this forum again but I got the same result. Too bad because some good guys are here. I'll stay with the AmericanLongRifle forum. Nothing but traditional sidelock, PRB, and real black powder used. I get along fine there.

Go there Ron and say a PRB is too weak for elk. Should be good for laughs. Don't bother responding to this. I won't see it.

Cya guys.

Most of the time I don't pay 1 bit of attention what someone says about the PRB. What gets my dander up is guys like you, and your best friend Jon saying elk are a piece of cake to kill and the fact is you guys have no idea cause you don't kill elk, or damn few. If I know what your saying is 100% false I will call you on it. when you say elk are easy to kill your WRONG.

Better yet I will stay out of the PRB boys swat each other on the rump boards. You can go there and give them all the advise you want.

 

[451whitworth]

Ron and Muley actually are both right but the line is always blurred with the PRB/bullet debate. The blurring comes from (IMO) the fact that most people only have experience with .45, .50, .54 caliber rifles, regardless of projectile, because they are the most common readily available sizes on the market for the past 40 years. When I got my first ML'er back in '87 as a teenager it was to participate in my state's first ML'er season. I knew nothing but my friend and I went after deer. He had a .45 and I had a .50 cal. We shot at deer no differently than using centerfire rifles (mistake). Well the .45 PRB wasn't too impressive and we started calling his rifle "two times" because he always had to shoot the deer twice to kill it. I didn't think much of the PRB. I really got into Ml'er hunting and quit using centerfire except for punching paper and varmints. When I was in college I went to a pawn shop and there was a PH Whitworth repro rifle on the rack for cheap. I bought it and promptly took it hunting. It hammered deer with the Lyman 457121 bullet. The following year in the same shop there was a .58 T/C and I bought it too. I didn't want to use a PRB but couldn't find any bullets so i ended up using them. Well I inadvertently stumbled on the PRB secret, diameter. That .58 floored deer as well as the Whitworth. I was amazed at the time. This is the blurred line. With the readily available calibers of .45, .50, .54 in the type of rifles sold for all those years we had to accept the lack of performance with mostly too small PRB calibers with too fast 1-48" twist barrels or trying to make the same twist rate (now too slow) barrels shoot bullets. With the correct rifle design the PRB and the bullet come into their own. If you read British hunting books from the glory days of the Empire they pounded BIG game with PRB's and a .58 was merely a deer rifle. The deer stalking rifles were .62-.72 caliber burning lots of powder with the PRB for flat trajectory out to 150 yards. The British also perfected the fast twist heavy bullet .451" ML'er rifle concept Idaho Ron uses to great effect. If you have never used a big bore PRB rifle designed for heavier hunting charges it is something to behold when the big ball lands.

 

[WV Hunter]

I have a very good friend that is a avid Elk hunter . (Jeff Blakley)He goes and has gone to Colorado for over 20 years. He spends 1 month on the Mountain every year . A month straight ! Jeff tells me Elk are the tuffest animals to kill.(or should i say find) Jeff says they have incredible stamina and a will to live . I have no idea this is just what i have been told by a avid elk hunter.

I agree! I have never killed an Elk, but I also have a buddy who has killed a ton of them. He says the exact same thing - they are super tough!! I side with Ron on this debate.

 

[ronlaughlin]

........... A hole in both lungs.......dead elk.

That is a fact Pete! Between the boy, and myself we have made them holes using 6mm, 257,6.5mm, 7mm, 308, 30-30, 340, 350, 358, 458. Them elk all came home with us.

If it was me hunting elk in Colorado this next season, i would be tempted to try Rick' hard cast hollow point that fractures. It will blow right through an elk, and those four petals would be nasty nasty flying things as they went through lung.

In my experience, hit anything wrong; you will be sad. Antelope are so very tenacious when hit wrong; they go far far away. Antelope drop on the spot, when hit good. Elk are very nearly as tough.........

 

[DavePA]

I've never even shot at or hunted elk - hope to sometime. I think there's some valuable lessons and information to be gathered from some all your experiences. As a eastern swamp deer huner, I must say I've been pleased with my .54 cal PRB performance on deer launched from a Great Plains Rifle (1;60") - recognizing they have their limitations.

 

[goco4game]

With a range finder, and tang sights or ballistic reticles, trajectory doesn't matter as much. Go heavy. I've been shooting 400 or 405 grain saboted bullets in my .50 caliber. I've tried all kinds of bullets, and in my opinion, most saboted bullets aren't heavy enough for elk at longer range. I consider 400 gr. the minimum with a .45 caliber bullet. With the hardcast 400 grain, I shot a cow at 70 yards this year and it went in the right front shoulder and out the left rear ham. Great penetration, but no expansion, and she went about 200 yards. Fortunately, the ground was wet enough to track since there was no blood trail. With the soft 405 gr hollow points, I've had 3 DRT shots and one that went 40 yards. Three of those shots were at 220 yards. I sight in at 150 meters and am only 8-10 inches low at 200 m.

 

[goco4game]

New poster hear, but long time muzzleloader hunter in Colorado. I've learned so much from this forum, and am always searching for new and better ways of doing things, especially hunting elk. After a lot of research, I came to the conclusion that a hardcast bullet with a wide meplat is the best way to go for elk, and most anything else, for that matter.
Mnoland30, you just poured cold water all over my theories! Can you please give more details about your elk kill - picture of bullet, size of meplat, did it hit any of the lungs, why did it go so far, and why no blood trail???? I have been on similar tracking scenarios (lots of time down on hands and knees looking for pindrops of blood), and frankly, I don't enjoy it and want to do whatever is possible to avoid it in the future!

 

[idahoron]

New poster hear, but long time muzzleloader hunter in Colorado. I've learned so much from this forum, and am always searching for new and better ways of doing things, especially hunting elk. After a lot of research, I came to the conclusion that a hardcast bullet with a wide meplat is the best way to go for elk, and most anything else, for that matter.
Mnoland30, you just poured cold water all over my theories! Can you please give more details about your elk kill - picture of bullet, size of meplat, did it hit any of the lungs, why did it go so far, and why no blood trail???? I have been on similar tracking scenarios (lots of time down on hands and knees looking for pindrops of blood), and frankly, I don't enjoy it and want to do whatever is possible to avoid it in the future!

You thoughts are not totally wrong. But I will say don't get hung up on "hard cast". To be honest if the bullet is between 7 and 9 BHN it is going to mushroom nicely. The wide Meplat is essential for putting a whomp on game.

 

[goco4game]

You thoughts are not totally wrong. But I will say don't get hung up on "hard cast". To be honest if the bullet is between 7 and 9 BHN it is going to mushroom nicely. The wide Meplat is essential for putting a whomp on game.

My understanding is that we want to limit expansion, or even stop it entirely, so their will be better/preferably full penetration, and at the same time, the wide flat non-mushrooming meplat causes extensive tissue damage and good bleeding out of both holes. Seems like the best of all worlds to me, although I'm aware there are widely divergent views on the topic!

 

[idahoron]

My understanding is that we want to limit expansion, or even stop it entirely, so their will be better/preferably full penetration, and at the same time, the wide flat non-mushrooming meplat causes extensive tissue damage and good bleeding out of both holes. Seems like the best of all worlds to me, although I'm aware there are widely divergent views on the topic!

You can have some mushrooming and still get full penetration. Bullets in the 7 to 9 BHN are plenty hard enough to get the job done. Harder than that and you have other troubles like difficult loading, and accuracy issues.