Savage Blow Up

[Grouse]

Why are we trying to confuse everyone here folks. Pyrodex and T-7 are a bp substitute, plain and simple when taling about muzzleloaders and they are safe to use in modern muzzleloaders. [/quote]

Bingo.... Triplese7en, pyrodex, Goex pinnacle, black mag, and so on are Black Powder substitutes. That is it. Dont look any further into it. 5744 can no way take the place of triplese7en in a Muzzleloader.

 

[sheephunterab]

Another thing. Just because something is illegal DOES NOT make it immoral as one of your posts suggests.

You might want to read my post again...never did I say something was immoral because it was illegal. There are loads of stupid laws out there that I have real problems with and work daily at changing. But, I would not knowing break a game law or the rules of fair chase and then enter the animal in the books. To me that is immoral. But as Omega pointed out, everyone has their own personal code of ethics and ultimately they must only answer to themselves. That I can do with a clear conscience.

 

[Mountain Man]

Why are we trying to confuse everyone here folks. Pyrodex and T-7 are a bp substitute, plain and simple when taling about muzzleloaders and they are safe to use in modern muzzleloaders. Smokeless powder is not! Period! Smokeless powder should only be used in guns like the Savage that are designed and approved for smokeless. All this word disecting does is confuse people and is going to end up with someone getting hurt. ...

Well, it will have been because the person was stupid and didn't take the time to learn what they were doing. Telling people on here to quit talking about actual facts does nobody a service. If you're too dumb or lazy to learn about the actual properties of the various types of available propellants and which are safe for your particular rifle and why--and which are not--then you have no business loading the gun in the first place.

Just because what you call "smokeless powder" isn't safe to use in SOME brands or models of muzzleloaders doesn't mean it's not a black powder substitute. Or that one is a "real" muzzleloader propellant and that one is not. Or that one group of those rifles are "real muzzleloaders" while the others are not. That's just stupid.

Bullseye or Hodgdon Clays are both unsafe to use in the Savage, NULA, or SMI, at least in a quantity sufficient to deliver any velocity. Some "smokeless" powders are safe to use in the correct quantities in those rifles with 400 grain bullets, yet would not work at all with 250 or 200 grain slugs. Some powders are safe to use in Knight or White rifles, but would not deliver reasonable performance in the Savage or SMI.

Nobody here is implying that it's okay to use "smokeless" in a Knight, BPI, Traditions, CVA, T/C, White, Lyman, or Gonic rifle. It's all a matter of identifying BOTH your weapon and the appropriate propellants for your weapon your projectile. But all rifle propellants are blackpowder substitutes.

It's those who try to GENERALIZE and over-simplify things that are causing unnecessary risk. Instead, we--and manufacturers--should just be specific, educated, and seek to educate others. Take the time to know precisely which propellants in what range of charge weights with what type of projectiles are safe and appropriate for your rifle. Anything else is just laziness.

And again, it comes back to this: there are a lot of people who just want to hunt and could care less about learning the ins and outs of muzzleloading. With the over-population of whitetail herds in the vast majority of states, there is NO RATIONAL REASON to unfairly push segmented seasons on those who just want to be able to pick up a gun and some bullets and go hunting. If we just had DEER season, there would be few people taking up muzzleloading without being interested in learning for themselves how to use their weapons safely and well.

 

[elkstalkr]

Another thing. Just because something is illegal DOES NOT make it immoral as one of your posts suggests.

But, I would not knowing break a game law or the rules of fair chase and then enter the animal in the books. To me that is immoral. But as Omega pointed out, everyone has their own personal code of ethics and ultimately they must only answer to themselves. That I can do with a clear conscience.

First let me say I DO NOT support breaking game laws in general. In case some of you have gotten the wrong idea about me. This just happens to be one of those laws I find really stupid and don't agree with. Why would a state allow modern muzzleloaders but not smokeless? Makes no sense.

I personally do not have any trouble with this, because it is legal here in NE, but like I said before, it doesn't bother me to think someone would use it if it weren't legal.

Sheep,

Your qoute makes it sound like if you did not enter it into the record books then that would be ok? I am sure thats not what you meant, but thats definetly the way it reads.

One other thought, I believe ultimately you have to answer to someone besides just yourselves. There will be a day of reckoning.

Ok, I'm done in here. No more bickering from me, sorry for boiling over.

 

[sheephunterab]

Sheep,

Your qoute makes it sound like if you did not enter it into the record books then that would be ok? I am sure thats not what you meant, but thats definetly the way it reads.

No...that was not the intent anyhow. If it's wrong...it's wrong....record books or not! The only book I'm really concerned about in my own. If it's not okay in my books I won't do it and breaking game laws is one of those things.

 

[sheephunterab]

But all rifle propellants are blackpowder substitutes.

I know where you are going with this but I think statements like the above are dangerous. I'm certain that some would take that to mean that they can throw some smokeless in their CVA and have no problems at all.....they can't!

Pyrodex, T7 and so on are classified as bp sustitutes because you can substitute them in your muzzleloader for blackpowder. You can't do that in the CVA with a smokeless rifle propellant so why confuse the issue?

 

[getonit]

..."""Well, it will have been because the person was stupid and didn't take the time to learn what they were doing. Telling people on here to quit talking about actual facts does nobody a service. If you're too dumb or lazy to learn about the actual properties of the various types of available propellants and which are safe for your particular rifle and why--and which are not--then you have no business loading the gun in the first place. """" Mountain man has this right- hiding the facts is worse than putting them out in front of every body- there are people that shoot overloads of T7 & pyrodex- even though they are "black powder subs" --in a CVA they can be just as harmful- and I agree with """But all rifle propellants are blackpowder substitutes. """ as they are- the Savage MLII is made to shoot a LIMITED QUANTITY OF SMOKELESS POWDERS OF A SPECIFIC CHARGE WEIGHT- it wont safely shoot all of the smokeless powders.-As stated by MM- if youre too dumb to learn .... you have no business loading the gun in the first place....How about loading 150 gr. of 4F in your CVA? Don't blame the gun because the shooter is STUPID..... -Getonit-

 

[Mountain Man]

Respectfully, you CAN'T just substitute T-7 by volume OR by weight for BP in a muzzleloader, so I don't think it is categorically a "substitute" any more than "smokeless" propellants.

That said, in case anyone not familiar with all of these distinctions happens to be reading, PLEASE DO NOT EVER USE ANY PROPELLANT OTHER THAN BLACKPOWDER, PYRODEX, TRIPLE7, CLEARSHOT, CLEANSHOT, PINNACLE, AMERICAN PIONEER, OR BLACK MAG 3 IN YOUR KNIGHT, GONIC, WHITE, T/C, TRADITIONS, WINCHESTER, REMINGTON, BPI, CVA, AUSTIN-HALLECK, OR OTHER BLACKPOWDER-RATED MUZZLELOADER.

In my opinion, ever muzzleloader manufacturer should publish a list of all specific loads (that is, a specific brand of propellant, in a specific charge weight, with a specific ignition type, under a specific projectile) that are safe to use in the particular muzzleloader for which the manual is published. We should all quit referring to general and innaccurate categories of propellants and discuss specific powders by name.

Then, anyone who strays from the manual loads for their particular gun does so at their own risk and should approach the task with the same reverence that a reloader must bring to the bench, and with the requisite knowledge of components, tools, habits, practices, hazards, and internal ballistics.

The basic problem is that there has not been a consistent emphasis on the fact that muzzleloading is a form of handloading with all the risks inherent to handloading. Because it is. If you don't feel competent to handload, you shouldn't muzzleload.

 

[sheephunterab]

Now we can agree Mountain Man!

 

[sheephunterab]

getonit...you can never go wrong sticking with manufacturer recommended loads and it is every shooter's responsibility to know what they are pouring down the barrel of their muzzleloader but I still abide by the KISS principal and saying smokeless powder is a bp substitute when we are talking abnout muzzleloaders isn't following that principal. We all agree and know what we are talking about but there is no sense confusing people on here with symantics! Smokeless powder is not a bp substitute in my Omega or Encore or Black Diamond or Fire Hawk or Hawken or any of the other muzzleloaders I own, that's the only point I'm trying to make.

 

[getonit]

but it is for the savage, smi, nula or other BP or smokeless safe firearms :d'oh!: -Getonit-

 

[sheephunterab]

but it is for the savage, smi, nula or other BP or smokeless safe firearms :d'oh!: -Getonit-

You betcha!

 

[Admin]

This topic really went downhill fast. :shock: