Savage Blow Up

[omega]

It is hard to break a law that doesn't exist except in marketing..

Hi Randy,
Just to clear all the debris out of your statement please answer yes or no to the question.
No, my personal ethics do not allow me to break the law and register illegally take trophies in the record book.
Thanks!

The answer is "NO."

Thank you!
Just to be clear here I wasn't judging or flaming anyone. We each have our personal ethics that guide us through our daily lives.
Let me explain mine using the statement that started this.

As long as your preloaders have pydrodex or t7 in them nobody knows what the "first" shot is.

But the truth is somebody would know what that first shot was, - me. And to me that is the only person that matters. I'd know I broke the law and cheated. When it comes right down to it if I cheat, I cheat myself the most and the worst, the other victims are only incidental.
Just my personal ethics - I've never wanted to be in the situation where I had to justify my actions after the fact when I knew I'd broke the law.

Your mileage may vary! :wink:

 

[sheephunterab]

Randy, as usual I have no idea what point you are attempting make in another of your diatribes and it has nothing to do with the point I was makling but I'll attempt to humour you once again.

First and foremost, I haven't publically taken a side on whether I agree that smokeless should be permitted or not in muzzleloading seasons so I'm not certain why you are wasting so much of your time trying to convince me they should. It's quite possible that I agree with you.

Secondly, you keep saying I should try a Savage. How do you know I haven't? How do you know I haven't done considerable range work with them?

Third, the guys on this board are constantly going on about all the advantages of the Savage so I just found the hypocracy entertaining when suddenly there was no advantage to it when they were lobbying for inclusion in all muzzleloader seasons or when they were trying to justify their illegal and immoral acts...I've forgotten now.

If I can give you one piece of advice about me Randy, it's to quit assuming so much because as the old adgae says......well you know. My posts were not anti Savage nor were they anti smokeless in muzzleloader seasons....they were anti slob hunters that figure they don't have to follow game laws and the laws of fair chase just because they don't believe in them. That's where my beef lies.

I'f I hunt in an area where sabots are prohibiyted I don't use them. If I hunt an area where an open breech is required, that's what I use. If I don't agree with the laws I may work at changing them but I'll darn well follow them until then.

 

[Mountain Man]

... If you don't agree with a law work to change it. ...

I have to say that I agree on that aspect of the debate.

If you wanted to say that some states' regulations are so ambiguous that they don't actually exclude "modern" smokeless powder (because they allow "black powder substitutes"), I wouldn't particularly argue. That's a matter of interpretation; what's being discussed is just breaking the law because some don't like it.

I think that breaking DEER season up into archery/muzzleloader/rifle segments is just as arbitrary as saying you can't use one form of nitro-based propellant (non-smoke producing smokeless powders) while you can a different form (Triple7). But, I'm not going to ignore the silly restriction by using a muzzleloader during archery season or a rifle during muzzleloader season. I've practice with my bow as much as possible and bought a Savage to garner as much performance as possible with the legal equipment.

 

[getonit]

in Randys favor he has done much more to inform and make the Savage more "user friendly" and safer off the shelf than anyone else I can name- and on most items I have to agree with his opinions-powder laws included-there is no denying the Savage IS superior to the TC products for ease of having to clean and cost per shot also- the accuraccy is a matter of your personal favorite- you can get sub MOA in both -if you like an encore(and the smoke) and practice with it and dont shoot another brand enough- the TC may be YOUR favorite- but not the next guys... as I said before - its easy for a encore shooter to join the smokeless here- and its seems as though a couple like to stir the pot- but until you can show you made a differance in the rifles use that you use - your opinion and a dollar will still just about buy a cup of coffee! :applause: ps glad to hear your dads out of the hospital Randy- Got my 77 yr. old Dad out a week ago- he'll miss the rest of this season but should be back shooting his MLII by next year-

 

[sheephunterab]

your opinion and a dollar will still just about buy a cup of coffee!

Not at Starbucks! :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[big6x6]

Hello guys,

I am new to this site but have been looking at it for some time while up here at Fort Belvoir in Virgina. I have a question to ask of all you experts:

I was all set to buy myself a smokeless Savage and then today, while searching the net I found an article on High Performance Muzzleloading that showed a Savage blow all to pieces. The article and accompanying warning to others was written by Toby Bridges. Apparently Toby is an expert in this field and was very fond of the Savage until the blow up. I think this happened last year and I am wondering if Savage has fixed the problem. According to Toby, Savage refused to acknowledge that there was a problem but the pictures he presented of high pressure gas damage over the course of a few hundred rounds pretty much convinced me that unless that rilfe has been modified, I should stay away. If you haven't seen the article you should read it. It was well written and quite alarming as I was under the impression that the Savage was flawless.

Can anyone shed any further light on this topic for me? I appreciate any info you can provide.

There was the inquiry in case anyone is still looking for it! :lol:

 

[dwhunter]

It is hard to break a law that doesn't exist except in marketing..

Hi Randy,
Just to clear all the debris out of your statement please answer yes or no to the question.
No, my personal ethics do not allow me to break the law and register illegally take trophies in the record book.
Thanks!

The answer is "NO."

Thank you!
Just to be clear here I wasn't judging or flaming anyone. We each have our personal ethics that guide us through our daily lives.
Let me explain mine using the statement that started this.

As long as your preloaders have pydrodex or t7 in them nobody knows what the "first" shot is.

But the truth is somebody would know what that first shot was, - me. And to me that is the only person that matters. I'd know I broke the law and cheated. When it comes right down to it if I cheat, I cheat myself the most and the worst, the other victims are only incidental.
Just my personal ethics - I've never wanted to be in the situation where I had to justify my actions after the fact when I knew I'd broke the law.

Your mileage may vary! :wink:

If you and everyone else will LOOK at my orginal post you would plainly see it was in jest but as usual people see and hear what they want too. Some on this board are just looking to name call and stir things up, I for one am sick of it. This thread has definitely gone south.

 

[sheephunterab]

If you and everyone else will LOOK at my orginal post you would plainly see it was in jest but as usual people see and hear what they want too. Some on this board are just looking to name call and stir things up, I for one am sick of it. This thread has definitely gone south.

Sorry it wasn't plain to me but I'm glad it was in jest. I've always enjoyed your posts and hoped your personal ethics were higher than that. Unfortunately some of the others on here took it seriously too and seem to have no problem doing what you suggested. I do have a problem with that.

 

[sheephunterab]

But the truth is somebody would know what that first shot was, - me. And to me that is the only person that matters. I'd know I broke the law and cheated. When it comes right down to it if I cheat, I cheat myself the most and the worst, the other victims are only incidental.
Just my personal ethics - I've never wanted to be in the situation where I had to justify my actions after the fact when I knew I'd broke the law.

Well said Omega! And I guess that's all that really matters in the end isn't it?

 

[Anonymous]

Got my 77 yr. old Dad out a week ago- he'll miss the rest of this season but should be back shooting his MLII by next year-

Life may not start at 77, but it sure is good when it continues being able to do what you really enjoy. :wink:

 

[omega]

Life may not start at 77, but it sure is good when it continues being able to do what you really enjoy. :wink:

Enjoy every minute as it was the last one! I lost my Mom two months ago at the age of 69.

 

[big6x6]

I lost my Mom two months ago at the age of 69.

I'm really sorry to hear that Rich..

 

[Grouse]

I have been very fortunate to have some great Muzzleloaders. I can Honestly say that one is as good as the other in a hunting situation. The Savage doesnt kill them any faster then my Encore or Disc Elite.

The Savage and Smokeless Muzzleloading is getting big (IMO) because of ease of use. And also cost. The Savage is really cheap to shoot. Dont be fooled by the cleaning part. The Savage needs cleaned as well. Just not as often. :wink:

Follow the rules when hunting. It just makes the harvest all the better.

 

[smokit]

Omega,Sorry to hear of your lose.I'll be thinking about you and your family tonight.

,Clint

 

[getonit]

Omega,Sorry to hear of your lose.I'll be thinking about you and your family tonight.

,Clint

that goes for me too- mine are still here but with some of the later age problems- the circle is coming around- instead of them caring and looking out for me - its me for them.... -Getonit-

 

[Ethang]

I didn't believe Randy on the Pyrodex/smokeless powder thing until I was digging around in my hunting stuff and came across a late 80's/early 90's bottle of Pyrodex that clearly states" A smokeless propellent".

If the manufacture of the powder states it's "smokeless" at one time, but not now, does that make it now different?
If Hodgon used to claim it was smokeless is it illegal to use in those restrictive states?
Are deer taken with loads using Pyrodex illegal deer?

I was just thinking.

Ethan

 

[getonit]

Its still all in the marketing- hogden has said on their web site that it isn't a "true" smokeless-even though the bottle says so...the USDT thinks otherwise.. -excerpt from the site-...Q. Why does my can of Pyrodex say smokeless powder? The directions for my rifle say I should not use smokeless powder. Is Pyrodex safe in my gun?

A. Pyrodex is not a true smokeless powder. Pyrodex does not contain nitrocellulose in any quantity. Pyrodex is considered to require the same handling and precautions while in transit as smokeless powder. The United States Department of Transportation has assigned the classification of "smokeless" to Pyrodex rather than the classification "Explosive" that is given to blackpowder. Pyrodex is safe in any firearm designed for the use of blackpowder.

 

[sheephunterab]

Its still all in the marketing- hogden has said on their web site that it isn't a "true" smokeless-even though the bottle says so...the USDT thinks otherwise.. -excerpt from the site-...Q. Why does my can of Pyrodex say smokeless powder? The directions for my rifle say I should not use smokeless powder. Is Pyrodex safe in my gun?

A. Pyrodex is not a true smokeless powder. Pyrodex does not contain nitrocellulose in any quantity. Pyrodex is considered to require the same handling and precautions while in transit as smokeless powder. The United States Department of Transportation has assigned the classification of "smokeless" to Pyrodex rather than the classification "Explosive" that is given to blackpowder. Pyrodex is safe in any firearm designed for the use of blackpowder.

Why are we trying to confuse everyone here folks. Pyrodex and T-7 are a bp substitute, plain and simple when taling about muzzleloaders and they are safe to use in modern muzzleloaders. Smokeless powder is not! Period! Smokeless powder should only be used in guns like the Savage that are designed and approved for smokeless. All this word disecting does is confuse people and is going to end up with someone getting hurt.

I understand the desire to get smokeless muzzleloaders approved in some states and some experts and consultants figure the best way is to baffle people with BS about powders but it's a dangerous game. If there are no advantages to the Savage shooting smokeless over a regular muzzleloader shooting Pyrodex or T-7 then they should be permitted or even if they do have advantages possibly they should be permitted but trying to baffle people with slight of hand over what is smokeless and what isn't is not the way to get it done. These magic tricks should be saved for the stage where their consequences won't be someone loading a muzzleloader with the wrong powder and killing themselves.

 

[n8dawg6]

i would feel perfectly safe touching off 100 gr. volume of pyrodex in my knight. try loading 100 gr. xmp5744 in your knight. or your savage, for that matter. whether or not pyrodex is "smokeless," it is designed to replicate black powder pressures. which means that it produces much lower pressures than moder smokeless. to me, that means there is a big difference between the powders.

nothing wrong with xmp5744, but goodness gracious, don't say it's the same thing as pyrodex!

 

[elkstalkr]

Sheep,

My opinion is thier is no advantage to shooting smokeless, its only more convient for the shooter, not everyone on the forum may share this opinion.

Another thing. Just because something is illegal DOES NOT make it immoral as one of your posts suggests.

Finally I am sure you have NEVER purposely broken ANY laws.